How upset is ok for nursery before enough is enough?

[Babysharkdoodoodoooooo]

So AIBU to think its time to say nursery isn't working..? Please be gentle- posted here for more traffic. It may seem trivial but it's caused a huge dispute between DH & I so I need some opinions before I make things worse by continuing arguing my opinion (if I'm wrong!)

Backstory, 13 month old baby has been signed up for nursery as it was the best we looked around and seemed to have nice staff. He's been for several "trial days". The first 2 were for half an hour & he seemed ok. On coming back, he was sat on the lap of one of the nursery staff playing. The third time, when I arrived, he was asleep but gasping how he does when he has gone to sleep crying (I've only ever seen him do it post vaccines previously so must have been very upset prior to falling asleep), third time DH was called to get him early because he was so upset, 4th time DH again called to collect him because he'd been crying solidly for 2 hours.

He's a very sociable baby. Has been looked after by various family members & a nanny without problems.

DH feels he will be fine & should continue going to nursery & doesn't want to pay more for a nanny. As of next week we are both back at work 2 hours from nursery so if upset, we can't get to him as we have done previously. A nanny who provided emergency childcare on a few occasions & whom he has been happy with has just had an opening & offered to take him instead but obviously as a nanny, is considerably more than nursery. DH says it is unnecessary expenditure and he just needs more time to settle. I'm not sure when enough is enough. For reference, he will be at nursery 3 days a week for 12 hours a day although thus far 2 hours is the maximum that's gone by before one of us has been called.

Am I being unreasonable? Does he just need more time to settle in at nursery? The staff say when he's gone, he just lies on the floor crying but when he is with anyone else, he is a highly sociable, happy baby. Friends are telling me the nanny is the right thing to do. I don't want to fight with DH but I want to do the right thing by DS. It's caused a huge fight with DH over the last few days as he is insisting DS remain at nursery & I just hate seeing him so upset.

My two went to nursery FT from 6 months. They had no trouble settling (perhaps because they were so young). They are older now and are very close to me and DH and doing well at school, so I don't see that nursery has been detrimental in any way.

I do think that 12 hours is a long day though. Our nursery only opened 8-6 and we usually used 8-9 hours by me starting late and DH finishing early.

In your situation I would choose the nanny. Although we were happy with the care provided by our nursery, I would have preferred a nanny if I could have afforded it.

Incidentally I often see it stated that there are all these great studies which show that nursery is bad for under threes, but nobody ever provides links to articles published in decent peer reviewed journals.

OP, non-doctors are not going to understand the way that junior doctors rotate because there are few other jobs that give you so little control over your place of work. People simply do not believe that we are moved from hospital to hospital, often hours from each other, every year, with no choice and limited notice (we get told in July for August changeover, and over the past five years I have been to Stevenage, Hillingdon and Southend despite being nominally based in Whitechapel). You can’t move closer to your job because your job might be 100miles away next year. And 100miles in the other direction the year after that. Neither can you request early finishes, late starts, or anything else that might make childcare easier (you can hardly leave mid-shift).

DS started nursery at the peak of separation anxiety and it was hard. We had a long settling in period (two weeks), but given that he screamed when I went to the toilet at home, that wasn’t a big surprise.

We knew it was separation anxiety because he screamed when I dropped him off but not when DH dropped him off (he screamed when DH left the house with him, ie when he left me, but he was fine by the time they got to nursery). And I when I picked him up, I could see that he was playing happily until he noticed me, and then started crying once he saw me.

The nursery carers are warm and affectionate, and there is far more space (and far more activities) than we have in our poky one bedroom flat. I’m a bit worried about your nursery putting him in a bouncer - ours would pick him up for a cuddle (they sometimes mention that they haven’t been able to put a child down all day). And surely he would be over the weight limit? DS can tip his bouncer over pretty easily (he tried to climb into it while we were clearing a cupboard, and it tipped immediately).

In your case I probably would go with a nanny - there’s much more flexibility if you are running late (non-doctor DH does a lot of pick ups and drop offs because my shifts are so unpredictable). A nanny can give tea and put your DC to bed, whereas DS is shattered and starving by pickup at six. We didn’t go with the nanny because our flat is so tiny and we wanted him to have some space, but if we had a bigger house with a garden we would have gone with a nanny.

Another option you might not have considered (and might not be able to afford) is for your DH to go LTFT as well. DH worked from home two days a week for a few months when DS was 8-14 months, which meant DS could do shorter days in nursery.

I’d also give some thought now to what you are going to do when your child starts school. You might have a consultant post by then (so living closer to work) but you are still going to need wraparound childcare. A nanny may be the easiest option, especially if you have a second child who will need care anyway.

@stretchoutandwait there are often studies cited on these threads. There is a real plethora to choose from, but the picture isn’t straightforward so just posting links doesn’t necessarily help.

A lot of people seize onto the definite advantages of nurseries for children who come from households where the parents aren’t able to do a great job, for whatever reason and lots also point out, correctly, that children benefit from good relationships with multiple caregivers and that they learn from each other. HOWEVER. Anyone worrying enough about their children to write articulate posts on here will not have the children who need nursery to even the playing field. Nurseries are often less than brilliant and have lots of children to cater for, so the “good relationships with multiple caregivers” probably doesn’t apply to the nursery context - staff turnover, low pay and lots of children do for that. And as people say over and over again on here, SAHM take their children out so being at home with your mother doesn’t mean never seeing another child.

If you want a good summary of the current stuff, have a look here:

developingchild.harvard.edu/wp-content/uploads/2004/04/Young-Children-Develop-in-an-Environment-of-Relationships.pdf

TL:DR nurseries are not the best place for a child under three, but studies can be read to support nurseries (incorrectly).

I agree with so much of saskin's post. Some of my dh's trainee jobs were 5 hours from home. It was horrendous. Some of the postees on here would suggest that Drs can't have kids, or should all Drs with kids give up work. Imagine the backlash when that hits the NHS!!!
We managed with nursery as my job is more flexible . I can see the benefits of a nanny though. It wpuld be very hard at times, esp when kids ill.
Op, if you are still here... DH is a consultant now. Plans his own time. Cuts clinic, theatre lists if he needs too ( within his rights before anyone has a hissy fit). This is allowing us both to have a career, see our kids and enjoy our lives (busy!). It does get so much easier. You might well be in the hardest bit.

That’s actually a pretty old paper @pramly and predates several major studies that have been published since. The bottom line is the evidence is mixed (depending on outcomes measured) and the long term impact is relatively limited either way unless the quality of parenting is poor. People always get carried away with the conclusions that support their position I find, and practally no one seems to understand (or perhaps acknowledge?!) statistical significant that often means the effects are marginal at best.

@SlackerMum1 I understand all of that. Paper provided because it’s a good summary that still stands up, not because it’s the most recent. But if we’re talking about best option, all things being equal (and acknowledging, slightly wearily, that they never are), the conclusions are pretty clear.

FWIW I’ve been a working mum and a SAHM. I don’t have an agenda. But it’s frsutrating hearing the same old nonsense “why have children if you don’t want to look after them” on the one hand (missing the point - people are forced into situations by society and it’s society that needs to change) and “nurseries are great - my child can operate perfectly adequately and went to nursery from age dot/ anyone who disagrees is anti-working women etc.”

I'm not sure how relevant a 14 year-old review focussing on the American system is. My question is have any scientifically robust studies been performed and published in a peer-reviewed journal. I have never found one and no-one has ever linked to one.

I personally prefer a good nursery to a nanny or childminder..the nursery we use has excellent staff retention and my son has had the same two nursery nurses for over a year.its a small nursery and the manager has been there for over 20 years

Op...id put him with a nanny so he gets one to one. X

If you are a junior doctor I would say nanny. Simply because it’s infinitely hardly to get time off if your DC is sick - and they do get sick more often in childcare, there are studies and everything! Also, there will be times that it’s impossible to leave on time and some flexibility about pick ups will be necessary. Furthermore, you can leave them with a nanny if they’re a just bit sick but potentially still infectious such as when they’re completely well in themselves but there’s still some diarrhoea.

If it facilitates getting through your training see it as a longer-term investment.

londonrach et al, OP has decided that she is trying the nursery option, even though she/they could afford a nanny. I am going to extricate myself from this thread now, as it seems the OP, despite having posted, is impermeable to anything that doesn't fit in with her view.

I am astonished at the inability of some posters to understand that, no matter how intellectually satisfying being a SAHM may be, some mothers have trained for years in professions, or built up lots of experience in a particular job, and may wish to continue using that training and experience in a way that simply cannot be replicated in the home environment. Taken to their logical conclusion, a lot of the comments on here are akin to “professional women should not have children”/women should not have professions. Shocking in this day and age.

Former nanny with own children now here. If he doesn't show a big increase in settling I would think about a nanny again, nannies work out cheaper when you have 2 children so if a second child is hoped for I know you said about fertility treatment. A nanny would be less disruption when on leave next time. A nanny could also do a few overnight if you have a second baby. Having a nanny you trust might mean that next time you feel you could go back to work earlier next time.

A year old is a funny time for babies as they are often going through a clingy stage at the end of the day trust your gut, you are the parents you know if you still feel happy with the nursery. If you do feel happy and your baby is happy with the nanny and the nanny is between jobs maybe you could just employ her for a few weeks to settle him in nursery picking him up after a few hrs and getting longer every week. Get her to maybe do stuff around the house when he is at nursery.

Another thought is he may be tired if you are having to wake him up. It may help to wake him up every day at the same time.

I have done different things with each of mine, one a very similar scenario to yours. He did adjust, and it could be coincidence, but he was definitely a quieter toddler and less outgoing.

The younger girl had a nanny, and although she was trickier by far and more clingy she actually blossomed into a more confident toddler/ young child.

The next also had a childminder/ Home set up and is a confident monkey.

DS was very ‘good’, he sat in circles, did actions etc and potty trained a tad earlier. But never really pushed forward in play etc, always one of the last to get a turn etc..

That saying, they evened out at age 6/7.

I also had the eldest two (years ago) at home with no childcare at all until 5, they progressed quite normally and didn’t start school clingy or overwhelmed.

prevent discrimination against women who choose to use their full maternity leave entitlement

But since her child is 13 months OP clearly has used her full maternity entitlement - and she's still being told that she's a crap mum for 'dumping him in nursery'. It's hard to escape feeling like a lot of posters on here think that mothers shouldn't work at all.

Bookatbedtime they should but they aren’t. The overwhelming tone of this thread is “well, if you MUST have someone else care for your child then pick the nanny”, with an undercurrent of “how terrible of you ever to have even contemplated nursery for three full days a week, what were you THINKING?”.

@Lisa yes whatever other problems there are in the NHS, the maternity leave policy is generous and you are encouraged to take the full amount.

The OP is working two days a week, which is really the bare minimum for a doctor (I do three plus on calls and I still feel a bit out of the loop). Yet she is still getting the ridiculous “why have children at all if you don’t want to hover over them 24/7” “I wouldn’t lock my dog in the cellar for the day and that is the exact same thing as paid childcare” comments.

Yes, jessie - and let's not forget that people have felt the need to point out, over and over again, that this is a 'tiny baby', which again strongly suggests that taking a full year's maternity leave was not nearly enough and seems to be designed to make OP (who presumably knows the size of her child) feel guilty.

@Book you may have missed the worst of the comments as they were fairly early on, but OP was literally told she was selfish for leaving a “tiny baby” at all (“sociable toddler” wouldn’t be so emotive would it), comparisons were genuinely made with using nursery and locking a dog up and leaving it, the why-have-children-if-you-don’t-want-to-look-after-them comment was made numerous times, various “well I LIKE my children so I’d never leave them to go back to work” comments... it was completely ridiculous.

And I got the distinct impression that the majority of posters were not SAHMs themselves at all, but just people with Strong Views on mothers working. Most SAHMs recognise that not everyone can or wants to stay at home.

And don't forget the comments stating that it is well established that nursery is bad for under threes. Despite the fact that the evidence is at best inconclusive and that most recent studies have found no link between early nursery use and behaviour.

I never said 'tiny baby' A child at just over one year old is a baby not a toddler.

Who made you the terminology police petrolpump? My son was walking at 13 months, i.e. toddling. So that’s when he became a toddler.

I was and am in a similar situation as you, both mine and OH's employers are a 1.5-2 hour journey during rush hour to get to our children's nursery. My OH travels using public transport and there is no quicker option, however I drive and could do the journey in an hour if during non rush hour (and during school holidays!). I have only had to do this 3 times in 3 years and on each occasion nursery were happy to keep my child until they could be collected. Our nursery is used to this, it is situated in a commuter town so lots of parents are in the same situation. There is usually a pattern eg, give calpol if registering a temp, then if the temp is not down within 30 mins they must be collected. They don't give calpol without permission so I will always have a 30 min warning to prepare to leave. If the nursery were to ever have an emergency (eg heavy snow earlier this year) and needed to close, they give many hours notice. They (and presumably all nurseries) would have emergency plans for when children cannot be collected immediately during a situation like this.
We moved to a commuter town by choice to give our children a bigger home and a garden (previously living in the city in a one bed flat as that's all we could afford). My eldest started when they were a toddler at the same age (13 months) and they did take a long while to settle but the nursery staff were very accommodating, even going to the lengths of cuddling them while they slept because at that point in their life they wanted to be cuddled to sleep. They do 2 long days a week and I am home with them 4 days. One day they go to my parents, we are very lucky in that respect.
We chose a nursery as it was the best option for our family. It opened longer (10.5 hours a day) and we were not able to cover both the children's potential illnesses and sole childcarer's potential illnesses and holiday cover (and any holidays my parents want to take) with our annual leave. I do have knowledge about attachment theory and child development, having studied both as a young adult. I work within a team of Early Years Professionals. I mention this because of previous posts, I made an educated choice to put my children in a nursery setting. They do full days and are happy at nursery.
Op, with regards to your situation, only you and your DH can decide but you are the person who knows your child best. I think you're doing the right thing (and it looks like your only option in the immediate future to try and ease your DS into nursery) and I hope this week goes well for all of you. Has your nursery done an 'all about me' questionnaire with you about your son? This really helped reassure me when my eldest wouldn't settle as I knew they would do anything reasonable to mirror his daily home routine and comforts.
I realise that there is not much point to my very long post, but I read every single post on this thread and many of them were very emotive and anti-nursery. To parents that may not have much of a choice if any, I didn't want them to feel alone, or to feel bad in the decisions that they have made for their families. Nurseries (and other childcare providers) can be a wonderful, safe place for children to receive excellent care when their parents need childcare. OP, I sympathise. I hope you are ok.