...to remind people about today's march against Brexit

[twofingerstoEverything]

...starting at 12 o clock from Pall Mall.

(Piccadilly, Green Park and Charing Cross station are the nearest tubes.)

LARLARLAND I've lived in the industrial North all my life. I have strong family links to the North East and Manchester and Salford.

I am of the working class but couldn't be called anything but middle class now.

The point is Brexit will screw the working class over, it is being used to build the power base of the Tory right. The only left wing argument I think is likely is that the conditions will be so bad after Brexit it might make 'the revolution' more likely.

White makes from disadvantaged backgrounds are being failed but it is not the fault of inmigration. Non of the analysis in this area suggest this.

I should know because this was the topic of my MA dissertation.

Here’s some evidence from The Sutton Trust:

The research brief suggests that there are complex reasons behind the results. They may reflect improvements in urban schools – to which they have also contributed – which have been faster than in rural and coastal areas over the past decade. Stronger family aspirations and cultural attitudes to learning are also likely to play a part, as analysis has shown that parents’ desire for their children to continue in education post-16 and willingness to be involved in schooling, both positively affect attainment. Some communities also benefited from targeted funds – both from the state and their own voluntary endeavour – to improve their education.

A lack of aspiration at home, coupled with ill thought out educational policy and an almost total lack of apprenticeship training positions in the last decade have contributed to the lack of achievement of white working class boys.

Progress 8 and the English Baccalaureate has been a disaster for these kids because it pushes the academic subjects over and above practical subjects.

White males obvs

Sorry, just to clarify. That quote from The Sutton Trust is saying that inner city schools have had a lot of investment because they were failing. Therefore pushing up the achievement of children from BAME backgrounds. But rural school, with predominantly white populations have failed to keep up with these improvements and often lack the funding to do so.

Another aspect is self esteem and self worth young white males score very low on self esteem when asked, in comparison to girls and students from BAME backgrounds.
Except black males who tend to score similarly.

I know somebody who was a white working class boy from Stoke on Trent, Tristan Hunt’s constituency before he gave it up mid-term to work at the V&A who would never dream of blaming immigration for his third rate education and lack of social mobility opportunities. The Tories on the other hand...

Why are pro Brexit people so against a second People's vote?

Surely if it's such a good thing then a second vote would have the same - or an improved majority in favour?

There were a lot of students on the march. So not all middle aged.
It was very peaceful, and very lightly policed - biggest "civil disobedience" were anti-Brexit stickers stuck to the doors of the Cabinet Office.

Oh and it takes a long time to train a Doctor - and nearly as long for a nurse. Especially if you include the need to improve schools etc. (and the best thing the Blair/Brown government did was Sure start as improving the education of the very youngest has the biggest and best results). We can't wait 3/5/10/15/20 years for more Doctors, and Nurses etc. we need them now!

Because Bekabeech a vote was already taken, and the majority voted to leave that is why!

Because Bekabeech a vote was already taken, and the majority voted to leave that is why

So you think an advisory referendum that wasn’t legally binding in legislature, is sufficient. That we should blindly leave whatever and however bad the final deal is?

Or does it make more sense to allow everyone a further option to exercise a choice on how we leave?

What was the referendum if it wasn’t a ‘peoples’ vote’?

The referendum was a people's vote without a definitive outcome. A second vote would be on the agreed terms of Brexit - a known quantity.

How is the walk going? Is there a large turnout?

The referendum was a people’s vote. And a vote on the deal will be a people’s vote. But they’ll be on two different things.

The first was a simple in/out. The second is actually far more important because it should contain the details that we were promised during the first campaign. The actual meat of the issue.

I can’t see how offering the country a day on something that will impact all of us so comprehensively can be a bad thing.

Unless the rabid idealists are worried that it will deny them the chance to shout ‘will of the people’ and ‘we voted for it’ in arguments.

It would cost a fortune and waste shit loads of time. I can’t see the benefit of it.

The difficulty is that people may still not inform themselves of the terms before a vote. A minority of people are wilfully ignorant - see the current thread about geography as an example.

You can’t see the benefit of asking people to consider the massive ramifications of our deal outside the EU?

I don’t even know how to begin to explain this. I couldn’t see the benefit of the original Brexit vote and quite frankly find the whole thing a total waste of time and money for no obvious benefit, except to appease a whole load of people (from all walks of life) who know nothing of history, economic, social justic, the class system, the EU and international trade.

Apart from people like Jacob Rees-Mogg who just see this as a once in a lifetime opportunity to shaft the poor and the plebs.

If I am honest I believe that the majority of the middle class are angry about Brexit because it fucks up their French holidays

Well, yeah it will, but it will also fuck up the holidays of people who like booze cruises to Rotterdam, drunken shag-fests in Magaluf and hen parties in Prague. Going on holiday to Europe is hardly just a middle-class pastime - pretty much everyone has the bits of Europe that they love to visit so Brexit will fuck it up for everyone - regardless of class.

Well, yeah it will, but it will also fuck up the holidays of people who like booze cruises to Rotterdam, drunken shag-fests in Magaluf and hen parties in Prague. Going on holiday to Europe is hardly just a middle-class pastime - pretty much everyone has the bits of Europe that they love to visit so Brexit will fuck it up for everyone - regardless of class.

Lol! Wow.

I totally agree MissSusanSays. The first vote was made without any of the realities of what an actual Brexit deal would entail. It was really a theoretical question.

Now it's time to ask a much more detailed question that sets out what the impact of the deal on the table , or lack of would mean for this country and our future generations.

Why wouldn't that be a good idea? To make a final decision on something so important based on facts rather than rhetoric.

I believe, but am happy to be corrected, that as Cameron failed yo get yet another 'deal' from the EU (we have had loads of deals in the past) there was a struggle in the Tory party. Cameron threw the 'OK we will leave the EU' as a threat which got turned into a vote.
I doubt he expected to get a 'leave' answer but as so many aspects that were NOTHING to do with the EU had got put up (erroneously) like immigrants, NHS and Sovereignty, the public voted leave.
Basically the UK voted for the 'wrong question', just to satisfy a Tory argument.

If I am honest I believe that the majority of the middle class are angry about Brexit because it fucks up their French holidays

Most middle class people will be able to absorb the costs. I doubt a working class family will be able to, especially if the price of food goes up as well.

Speaking as a middle class person: I’m mostly worried about employment rights, the economy, my friends who lib in Europe and are married to Europeans and the increasing small nation mentality going around.

@Juneau
Speaking from France your proposal sounds excellent from the European point of view. Brexit,,,BRING IT ON!

juneau

Yeah, just imagine Ibiza without the Club 18-30 groups. That’s the kind of stuff that will become unaffordable.

Can’t imagine the people who drive to Eurocamping will be as badly affected.

Ibiza is a beautiful peaceful island AWAY from the hideous clubs.

They could have another public vote and decide how to proceed. I'd be interested to see how many applied for a European/dual or non uk passport and voted 'leave'.

Of course Cameron didn’t expect a leave vote when he called the referendum

But he along with many other MP’s ignored how disillusioned many voters had become. Years of areas being ignored little or no investment in industry, the financial crash that saw them struggle while others appeared to recover and carrying on as before, MP’s expenses fiasco (that I think is often forgotten about but just adds to the feeling of they don’t care) certain industries particularly building industries workers saying we are being undercut and ignored (what did it matter when the work was getting done and sold for huge profit). Areas that had changed and had no extra money to support high levels of immigration the people were fobbed off or given figures of real immigrant stats for the country in other words ignored.

Then not taking UKIP or rather Nigel Farage seriously when they were gaining in popularity both Labour and the Tories were foolish in not doing so

I don’t blame people for not listening to the you will be the ones who suffer the most rhetoric as they had been suffering for years nothing had changed and suddenly there is a chance for real change it’s understandable why so many were willing to vote for a real change.

Why people are so shocked it happened just shows what a political bubble we chose to allow ourselves to be in