to wonder why anyone votes tory?

[traciebanbanjo]

All they seem to represent us keeping the rich, rich and the poor, poor. There doesn't seem to be that many rich people so why do they get so many votes?

The argument of - well it's labours fault tories got in, so Thatcherism is really labours fault - wtf! That's no excuse for Tory behaviour when they are in power, that's like telling a kid thumped by a bully "well you shouldn't be smaller than them" 🙄the tories COULD act more compassionately if they WANTED to.

Puzzled - then it's pointless discussing with you as you won't accept even common sense that if you put someone who's already struggling (financially, with mh, with disability, with lack of support) under even MORE pressure by making those issues even WORSE that they're going to be in genuine pain and despair and so if they commit suicide it's not a huge leap that these were AT LEAST contributory factors.

In clapson's case it's even more simple to link the facts - diabetic with no money for food or even to keep his insulin stored correctly ends up dead! Hardly rocket science to see that if he'd been properly supported and not been left skint he'd still be alive!

Have you ever been on benefits? Suffered a mental or other chronic illness or disability? Because honestly it seems like these are remote experiences to you.

Regarding inquest for Clapson - do you not think at the very least that it's telling that his sister is having to FIGHT to even GET an inquest?

"For any party, focusing on your client group is all very well, but mistakes can be made when assuming just how many of them they are" am I right in thinking you mean preaching to the choir is pointless? If so, I agree, to a point. A party can't ignore their 'old faithfuls' but they also need to attract new voters. It's very tricky. Especially as they have to do this without losing their principles - that's what I think did for new labour. All well and good to woo new voters, but they're likely to be floating voters lacking loyalty to one party, to attract them to the detriment of the faithful is, I think, a mistake.

Weirdly I can see the tories now starting to make similar mistakes. That's why they had to u-turn on dementia tax and rethink the bedroom tax - because these negatively affected their core voters. They're doing it again with the WASPI's.

SweetSummerChild - I agree most govts are guilty of vanity projects, change for the sake of change, then not giving the changes a CHANCE to be proven or disproven before abandoning them for yet another change.

As someone who their entire life has been the sodding Guinea pig for many of the changes they're also usually rushed in, without PROPERLY Consulting the 'troops on the ground' who have to ACTUALLY deal with the changes.

I mentioned the farce that is UC before I have friends and relatives working frontline dwp who predicted the issues we're now seeing AND are the ones getting it in the neck from both claimants (who are mostly scared and stressed) and the high heid'yins (who are clueless I'm told).

I was also dealing with csa/cms most of the past 15 years.

Common denominator? Shit, not properly tested, not fit for the job IT systems!

Eg - none of the csa systems flagged up if my ex hadn't made a payment that month for someone - hell even an automated - chase! I learned to call them when it was due with them EVERY MONTH so I wasn't in the position of not knowing until it was due in my account and delaying his being chased! I think I was told at 4 points, that the system had been 'fixed' or they'd a new system and "you'll find you won't need to do that any more" - wrong!

Not only is it irritating and rage inducing for those at the mercy of these systems, surely it MUST be cheaper in the long run - even within a govts term - to spend more on a system that WORKS rather than the cost of dealing with the cock ups - which usually means PEOPLE sorting it manually!

So wasteful of the countries resources!

BMW6 and any others who've possibly worked with these systems - drive you nuts too?

I voted tories because they benefited me more than labour. Best of a bad bunch, I definitely don't agree with a lot of their policies but thought the ones they had were viable, whereas some of Labour's seemed impossible to pull off.
I'm in a low income household, but I work fulltime and am comfortable. I was once in a position where I lived on my own and had to move back in with parents due to not being able to afford my housing whilst working full-time. The council actually told me I'd be better off leaving my job in order to keep my independence! I personally believe that a society where you are better off on benefits (in areas like mine) is awful and promotes the wrong type of attitudes children will grow up with. I have friends that fully rely on the benefit system and we have discussed these issues before, they have all said "why should I lose money by working". I blame labour for those attitudes for making the system so comfortable. I fully expect to be slated for my opinions but I truly believe if you don't contribute something to society you shouldn't be able to afford a 55" flat screen tv, holidays, a car other such luxuries when a full time working individual in the same area doesn't have the same disposable income. This is all without loans or catalogues or being in debt. It may sound bitter and I frankly don't care, the system should benefit the workers and is far from perfect but I think the tories are taking it in the right direction. I also think there should be a scheme for people on benefits to earn their income such a volunteer work. Just a small something to contribute towards society. I don't include disabled people in my opinions, we should look after the most vulnerable. Not people who think having several kids is the answer to paying bills via benefits which tories have put a stop to

. I also think there should be a scheme for people on benefits to earn their income such a volunteer work. Just a small something to contribute towards society.
the Tory’s have tried this but the liberals didn’t want this apparently why should somone vounltetr they called it salve labourlabour don’t want the working class working they don’t want them gaining any skills at all why else who they block every try to get these people off welfare why would they black every attempt to get them into grammers and private schools the same education many labour MPs children currently enjoys it’s like the Victorian times when the white middle class had their causes that they would shout about and wax lyrical about the poor but all the while doing everything to wed the working class to their fate

I voted tories because they benefited me more than labour

Well at least your honest I suppose. The thing is, circumstances change. Health status changes, as I know only too well. Everyone will need the nhs at some point even if you don’t need it know. It’s so short sighted.

I’m sure I’d pay more tax under labour - happy to do it if public services improve.

labour don’t want the working class working they don’t want them gaining any skills at all why else who they block every try to get these people off welfare why would they black every attempt to get them into grammers and private schools the same education many labour MPs children currently enjoys it’s like the Victorian times when the white middle class had their causes that they would shout about and wax lyrical about the poor but all the while doing everything to wed the working class to their fate

What on Earth are you talking about? Honestly! Labour don’t want people acquiring skills? That must be why the last labour government had a 50% university attendance target. And why they introduced tax credits, so that people who couldn’t afford to come off benefits to work had that opportunity.

I don’t agree with tax credits at all, it’s subsidising private enterprise by enabling companies to avoid paying a living wage to their staff. New Labour were neo liberal though, so it’s hardly a surprise.

The stuff you’re coming out with has no bearing on reality.

As for a two tier system, which political end of the spectrum do you honestly think has created and fostered this?

What I would like is the UK government to make sure banks pay back every penny for the bailout.
That would be lovely.

What I would like is the UK government to make sure banks pay back every penny for the bailout.

You mean like Lloyds bank who have repaid every penny of their bailout?

We are a country of conservatives with a small c

We don’t have extreme politics Thatcher wasn’t so far to the right and May certainly isn’t

If the those that are at the head of the Labour Party don’t understand our countries politics and work with that then they shall never get into power that is why Blair/Brown were so successful

As for Blair and Corbyn despite Iraq Blair was a good party leader, he was able to deal with negotiations on a national and international level. Corbyn has never moved on from local union level and he is a very poor opposition leader

And well I know his past seen him in tv defending himself enough times

Yes but not ever bank we bailed out has.
I know many have paid back most if not all money lent but there's some that haven't. And I feel with the billions possibly out there we need to focus on that As well as 'making people on benefits volunteer and work and increasing tax etc

Tax credits is another vehicle to keep working class on welfare another benefit to keep you voting labour

Why didn’t labour simply tell employers to pay their workers a decent wage

Now employers pay low because they know the government will top up

And now the rot has set in people planning families not based on their actual wage but how much tax credits they will get

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed

Everything you said he’s not a pragmatist he can’t negotiate he’s not viewed as patriotic

He wouldn’t share a platform with Dave for the garter good that really worried me and it’s virtual signaling it’s widely believed that if he did he may of swung the vote

He employers his entourage rather than who he thinks is good for the good and tbh I can’t abide someone whose been promoted because they shagged their boss
And it’s worse because she is black and black women find it hard to be taken seriously on the best of days
Ffs he can’t even win when the Tory’s are loosening

He can’t can’t command his own team

He is not a leader the only people who love him are people on welfare and we all know that was the plan transgender and the yoof

Tax credits/ 50% to university ramping up of PFI (wether Conservative started it or not) is playing an issue with the problems we have today, what most of the "football team" supporters seem to do is try and brush over that decade and bring Thatcher.

The country doesn't get a hard reset when a new government comes into power and as EnthusiasmIsDisturbed we are generally a small c conservative country, pretty much like the rest of europe.

Corbyn is not the breath of fresh air that he was purported to be when he swept into power, the parallels between Corbyn/Momentum and Trump etc is quite striking.

The ardent supporters of both pick and choose what parts are to be believed and anything not towing the ever increasing line is brushed aside as fake news or have been taken in by propaganda. If that fails its those pesky Democrat/Tory paid trolls.

"I voted tories because they benefited me more than labour." At least that's honest. Bit short term narrow minded thinking though - everyone is only 1 major life changing event away from needing the safety net. Redundancy, bereavement, ill health, accident resulting in disability, spouse, child or parent becoming ill/disabled and needing full time care...

Shelter estimates 1/3 working families are just ONE pay cheque from eviction.

That one time you were told better off quitting work rather than losing your independence:

A what govt was in? How long had they been in? Who were the council led by?

B how do you know that wasn't just that one persons opinion?

The "we should be better off working than on benefits" trope

What makes you think those who want a decent benefits system DON'T agree? What we DISasgree on is how that is achieved.

I and many others think it's BETTER to achieve this by paying people a decent LIVING wage NOT by punishing those in need.

Having been in receipt of benefits of some kind for 15 years, that includes when working - which REALLY shouldn't be necessary but WAS, I find it very hard to believe you genuinely KNOW people who can afford all those luxuries without having ANY debt or work history or help from relatives who are probably working. I certainly couldn't and we have always lived sensibly. I don't drink, smoke, take drugs, no fake tan or nails, no holidays, no car, no Sky tv etc and I barely break even! And I'm on higher level benefits as I'm disabled!

See my post on UC, have you heard of the benefits trap?

I've experienced and have friends and family who've been through similar re the NIGHTMARE that is trying to get through the first month-6 weeks of moving from being on benefits to working. You have to tell them immediately. Even when you were SUPPOSED to get a grace period I don't know ANYONE who didn't find that actually ALL money stopped 'while your income is reassessed' and you wouldn't get another penny from benefits for easily 3-4 months! Meanwhile you're needing to pay rent/mortgage, bills as usual PLUS transport to, clothes for work, child care fees IN ADVANCE. People who were on benefits don't have the equivalent of up to 6 weeks salary saved up to fall back on! And not everyone has or can rely on bank of parents! I didn't. I managed with a combination of 'borrowing' from dwp - which of course had to be paid back, this isn't negotiable you have to pay back on their terms, incurring debt elsewhere too, and SERIOUSLY tightening my belt to the point of missing meals - while working 8-10 hour days! Then when you DO get that first pay - most of it needs to go to keeping creditors at bay to keep your head above water! It's crazy!

Then if for any reason you have to go BACK on benefits you have essentially the same thing all over again - EXCEPT there's no pay cheque down the line to provide a light at the end of the tunnel!

THAT is why a lot of people on benefits are fearful of even TRYING going back to work. It certainly was a big consideration for me, not least because I'd be willing to take the risk of it only affected me, I certainly took risks career wise when I was young, single and child free BUT when you're responsible for someone else - a child, a sick or disabled spouse, child or parent - it's bloody terrifying!

Surely it's BETTER to "benefit the workers" by

PAYING DECENT WAGES - and I agree it's mainly a (new) labour govt to blame for this by subsidising EMPLOYERS by topping up wages with tax credits! No - the employee is benefiting the business and the employer should PROPERLY recognise this by paying a RESPECTABLE LIVING WAGE!
Making the transition from benefits to work smooth and supportive rather than whipping away ANY SEMBLANCE of a safety met IMMEDIATELY before you even get your first pay!
Bringing down the cost of living for EVERYONE eg bringing down housing costs
SUPPORTING people to be able to stay in work when life throws them a curve ball - like being able to work from home, being able to reduce your hours temporarily WITHOUT losing your rights eg if you're needing to provide caring support to a dying relative, while DC are young, while dealing with ill health...
By supporting workers by PROTECTING them from less scrupulous employers - I was shocked to read on here that you have to be an employee for 2 YEARS before many rights are afforded to you - it seems to have changed around 2011/2012

As I said I've seen this issue locally to me with 2 major employers employing the SAME people on a rotation but only EVER employing them on temp contracts - but these employees have essentially been with the same company for several years, but have NO RIGHTS - how is this allowed??

I also vehemently disagree with the "voluntary" work for those on unemployment benefits - the 'scheme' already exists btw - ESPECIALLY When that work is done FOR a private company!

A - if you're doing the work you deserve the pay!

B - if the work is there needing to be done then that business should be employing someone to do that job and not only paying accordingly, but affording them the rights due an employed person AND not being subsidised by the state to fill a corporate position. If there's a job there - then it can be filled by someone on unemployment benefit PROPERLY so they can come OFF employment benefit.

This is another con I see taking place locally - several well known national companies taking on "volunteers" on jsa but never correctly filling the role - CLAIMING there isn't a full time, permanent role available BUT ALWAYS having "volunteers" in doing the work.

The prospect of the person getting taken on permanently is sometimes dangled as a carrot - I don't know ANYONE who has been taken on permanently, not even part-time. It's particularly popular with retailers in the run up to Christmas - free temps!

isla all children start off with two parents. Why are you blaming the mothers but not the fathers for being irresponsible.

I would like to see the evidence for claims that only conservatives can manage the economy. Really? They're making a pigs ear of it. No investment in infrastructure is making us less and less competitive.

They give contracts to private companies who go bust, which costs the taxpayer more to bail them out than when more services were nationalised or if they were better at organising contracts.

They cost the taxpayer more than necessary by cutting preventative/ support services which result in increased costs due to preventable hospitalisation, crime etc

We are fatter, drink more and have poorer mental health than our european counterparts,

The govt has absolved responsibility for air pollution and the shocking housing crisis.

The student loan system benefits no-one. Universities don't receive adequate funding, most people won't repay in full so the people who do best are the student loan companies.

Austerity is not working. Levels of personal debt have never been higher. This is a ticking time bomb.

It's a complete myth that only the conservatives can manage the economy.

Have you ever been on benefits? Suffered a mental or other chronic illness or disability?

Graphista Yes to both - and as mentioned above I also have a disabled son, which is how I came to mention the better provision I've found under Conservative controlled agencies as opposed to Labour, who IME are hot on whining and empire building but less interested in their actual job

And yes, of course I agree that service provision can be a contributory factor to MH issues and all the rest, but that's not the claim I was challenging. What I took issue with was the insistence that a government had downright killed many people - actually murdered 120,000 according to some - which I'm still waiting to see any real evidence for

The bank bailout thing, Gordon Brown pushed Lloyds very hard into a very bad deal. RBS was a shit show of Fred’s own making.

Then I'm genuinely utterly bewildered that you think the cuts to the nhs, support services, benefits haven't AT LEAST contributed to the increase in suicide, depression, malnutrition, diseases we haven't seen in MANY decades returning inc rickets, scurvy, diet related anaemia... Which in turn lead either directly to death or indirectly to worse conditions causing death like pneumonia, whooping cough, tb...

I'm involved in a few groups relating to disability benefits and UC and we're regularly losing members - I'm talking at least 1 a month - dying when their condition was manageable, their death avoidable WITH THE RIGHT SUPPORT

It's both heartbreaking and terrifying.

Do you not even consider those lost at Grenfell victims of the cuts?

Islaall children start off with two parents. Why are you blaming the mothers but not the fathers for being irresponsible

If you read what I said you'll find I said the feckless fathers fuck off and leave the taxpayer to bear financial responsibility for their children.

Single mothers can work too. Lots do. However, it''s becoming more and more usual for young single mothers to rely on benefits.

Do you not even consider those lost at Grenfell victims of the cuts?

It's hard to reach any conclusions on that as the public inquiry/inquest are still ongoing. Hopefully, when they're finished, things might become clearer - hopefully, too, proper action will be taken against anyone who's found criminally responsible

@MissionItsPossible, Thank you. I'd like to see it again.

@rogueantimatter has just made some really good points.

I hope the increased funding the Tories have just promised for the NHS materialises this time. Past promises have been smoke and mirrors. For example, the Tories slashed the social care budget, which cost the NHS a lot of money. The most obvious example was the increase in delayed transfers aka "bed-blocking". And it wasn't long ago that the Tories announced that more would be spent on mental health services, then admitted that the NHS would have to find the money from its existing budget.

If the NHS does get the promised increase this time, it will be a good start, although it sadly it won't go far enough. The NHS has become a victim of its own success; it can now keep more people alive for longer, but that's a very expensive business, especially with an ageing population.

Jeremy Hunt has written in the past of his wish to privatise the NHS. And dozens of MPs have interests in private healthcare companies. It's scary to think of what will happen if we sit back and let them get on with it.

I do wonder sometimes why people vote Tory. Then I see the alternative party of government: racist, vile, bullying and dishonest, to a degree not seen in the last 50 years.

How does anyone contemplate voting Labour?

There must be racists in Labour because there are plenty of racists about, unfortunately. But I don't believe that Labour is any more racist than the Tories or UKIP.

I do remember a bullying scandal a couple of years ago. It involved the Conservative Party.

“there must be racists in Labour” - what, like it’s a possibility? No, the Labour Party is now the market leader in racism.

Anyone who supports Corbyn Labour is a promoter of anti-semitism and should be ashamed of themselves.

Why would anybody vot Tory?.
One reason is there is no credible alternative, the Labour Party under Corbyn would ruin this country with his far left and unsustainable ideas.
Two examples are his support and praise of the IRA who murdered thousands of innocent people, and his praise and support of the socialist regime in Venezuela that has led the country to ruin..
Google Corbyn and the IRA, and Corbyn and Venezuela, then make your mind up.

1isthis, nails it above. it is hard to disagree with that post. We all in all parties want to ensure those disabled who cannot work are cared for, but for others we need more of an incentive to work so that not working or working part time are a very very financially unattractive option.

I have not seen anything on this thread which makes me think it likely Corbyn will win the next election in 2022 although the negative effects of brexit and the general "swing of the pendulum" between parties might I suppose.