to wonder why anyone votes tory?

[traciebanbanjo]

All they seem to represent us keeping the rich, rich and the poor, poor. There doesn't seem to be that many rich people so why do they get so many votes?

Tammy, lots of us on higher earnings pay full tax and most people think we don't which is particularly annoying I can certainly tell you! (47% is upper 45% rate plus upper 2% rate so the very well off pay 47% on most of their income as most of what they earn is over the 45% tax threshold (and they don't get a single person allowance either and no child benefts etc - the last few Govenrments have been very high tax and put a lot of taxes on the shoulders of the higher paid - there doesn't seem to be a low tax party in sight for whom I could vote)

"£34 billion is the total value of tax that goes uncollected."

Direct from the link.

So its still tax going uncollected, just not avoided,

Xenia, yet the highest paid still pay lower levels of tax than they have done historically since 1945.

I am a higher rate tax payer, people earning this kind of money do not need personal allowances or child benefits.

I'm of the opinion that actually, I need society to work in order for me to be able to operate and make the money I and my company do. I need the schools to work because my employees need educated children and I need new educated staff. Without the staff I couldn't get my business operating the way it does. Same goes with all sorts of publically provided amenities, public transport, roads, health care, the list is endless. Without these things functioning properly the ability to operate would be far lower.

Further, I believe that actually the trickle down effect is incorrect. If you cut my tax by say 5% it probably won't make much of a difference to the lifestye I lead, so I'm more likely to save that rather than spend it in the real economy. Lower taxes for the middle and bottom however drive up demand and increase the economy, meaning higher profits, lower unemployment etc etc.

Never in British history have the highest paid so much of the tax burden.Anyway we can all give our different views on this but the bottom line is will Labour be able to be elected in 2022. I hope not as I am pretty sure they will impose an even higher tax burden than the one I currently have to bear which is hard enough and not helped by so many people thinking high earners pay no tax.

I haven’t seen these rabid new labour supporters so deluded over a leader since Michael Foot.

And I admired Foot he had dignity and principals but he was no leader.

Corbyn has none of the above.

Time will tell. Hopefully sense will prevail eventually.

I can only see JC going is on the day labour gets a kicking at the next GE.
Even then he will be forced to leave I bet!
I can see it happening.

From your link: “£34 billion is the total value of tax that goes uncollected.”

So it’s false how?

You may be a high rate tax payer but if you think there are large numbers of people on very high earnings, even close to the £250k you quoted, who are in the PAYE system for their entire income then you don’t know what you’re talking about.

It’s not us who are coming across as deluded, believe me. Corbyn’s voting record is freely available, but sure, he has no principles.

I just don't get people who won't vote for a party because they don't like the leader of the party.
You either agree with a party's manifesto or policies or you don't, be it Tory or Labour.
Why would you risk a party whose policy you disagree with being elected because you don't like the leader of the other one?

£34 billion is the total value of tax that goes uncollected

Therefore its NOT being avoided or evaded, stop pretending it is. So as the Tories have done, cracking down on and passing laws on tax avoidance and evasion wont bring in £34 Billion. The UK has one of the most efficient tax collection systems in the world and one of the lowest shadow economies in the world.

No other country in the world has done it, so in what fantasy world is Jeremy Corbyn going to magic up this hypothetical £34 Billion of uncollected monies?

This is why I vote Conservative because unlike Corbyn they are not Doolally.

I have voted for both Labour and Tory in my 42 years of voting. Probably works out 50/50. I vote for the party that I think will be best for UK overall at the time, or I think the government in power is too far left/right.
When I have voted Tory I have not had a personality transplant nor has my intelligence decreased or increased. I have not become less caring of the vulnerable but rather believe that to be in a position to really give help you need to have a healthy income and a pragmatic approach.
I would consider voting Labour again if they had sensible, realistic ideas. But they don't. Just a 70's student union attitude and manifesto of jam today, starve tomorrow.

In my opinion. But what do I know - I am 60, seen them come and go, worked under them all since 1975 in the Civil Service (HMRC).

Therefore its NOT being avoided or evaded, stop pretending it is. So as the Tories have done, cracking down on and passing laws on tax avoidance and evasion wont bring in £34 Billion. The UK has one of the most efficient tax collection systems in the world and one of the lowest shadow economies in the world

There is tax not collected as well as avoided and evaded.
There are not enough Tax fraud investigators.
There are more benefit fraud investigators employed than tax fraud investigators.

After having read the hysterical posts I can only conclude that the reply to OP's question "To wonder why people vote Tory"? Is because, luckily, they can. It's great to have a choice when the opposition is shit!

Aren't we lucky to live within a democracy?

£34 billion is the total value of tax that goes uncollected

Again, the tax gap is the difference between what HMRC expects to receive in tax all things being equal and what it actually receives.

economia.icaew.com/en/news/june-2018/hmrcs-tax-gap-rises-to-33bn

“Taken together, tax evasion (£5.3 billion) and the hidden economy (£3.2 billion) cost the UK Exchequer £8.5 billion in lost taxes every year. Clearly this is a much bigger problem than tax avoidance.

www.taxation.co.uk/Articles/2017/10/31/337154/tax-gap-narrows-6-continue-ten-year-trend

Anyone who thinks there's a switch you can flick and suddenly all profits will suddenly be taxable in the U.K. really doesn't understand what they are trying to rail against; this isn't the 1930s anymore.

To add further to this, HMRC has the High Net Worth Unit looking at the taxes of the wealthy. It is a world leader, along with Australia, in enforcing compliance for wealthy individuals, allocating everyone over a certain threshold a dedicate tax professional who risks and oversees their case. This is quite expensive and labour intensive.

The notion we aren't doing anything about taxing the wealthy, and that there is a magic lever somewhere we can pull that will get another hundred billion in without much effort is complete bullshit.

It does help if you read around the subject other than just Independent clickbait articles.

Agree with you 80s it will take a massive decimation like it did with foot and he will go although now he feels he is important I think he will stay as his ego is massive and a new centrist party may emerge with the sensible labour MPs and the older core supporters.

If labour is resigned to a momentum rabble so be it. It’s just a name. A new centre left party would be exciting

a new centrist party may emerge with the sensible labour MPs and the older core supporters

We can only hope so ... but right now I can't imagine who'll be the one to start the ball rolling

Puzzled no me,neither right now, but if labour really bomb and the idiot members still refuse to get rid then surely there will emerge candidates and support? It’s my one comfort now.

I just don’t see him ever stepping down whatever the outcome.

I'd never, ever vote Tory but there's no chance of me voting Labour again after the display of sheer incompetence, stupidity and cowardice letting Corbyn a) near the leadership in the first place and b) not getting rid of him. His well-known past speaks for itself, with 'smears' being contemporary reports and facts. But there's no point arguing with Corbyn obsessives: they turn away from the truth and dig in further.

a new centrist party may emerge with the sensible labour MPs and the older core supporters

I am hoping for this but having heard a political commentator (can’t remember who) discussing this on the radio they would never stand a chance if winning due to our voting system

We just have to wait it out good it good news for the Tories

I dont think the Unions + Momentum would ever let a new centrist party into the arena. Like at the recent Labour Live festival they actual threw labour supporters out for unveiling an anti Brexit banner.

Xenia it's really annoying it should be easier to find the info.

Why was I bewildered May got in? Because even aside from everything else I feel she really lacks charisma, personality. Even John Major while 'grey' had that accountants steady aura around him, May just seems - bland!

"Agree that for most Tory voters, it's dislike of scroungers that is at the heart of it" I agree, even though there's very little benefit fraud (you'll never completely eliminate it without making it almost impossible to get them at all - which is where it's heading with UC). Regarding your point WHO they think the 'scroungers' are - never them as voters - they thought!

Tory voters I know were shocked to discover AFTER the 2010 election that as far as the party were concerned THEY were the scroungers - because the voters didn't see tax credits or pensions as 'benefits' but the Tory party do. So while I think they will still vote Tory in future (I'm confused why) that did sting!

"Go and check the figures ffs!!
Complaining about benefits but not giving a shit about greedy corporations and multi millionaires avoiding tax?
Not caring that our public services are being destroyed.
Thinking profit for the rich is more important than peoples rights, working conditions, health and welfare, affordable homes.
Carry on the way we are and eventually it will impact on you." As above. Already happening - but they don't reconcile the effect on them with their having voted Tory, I genuinely don't understand it.

I also have a vague recollection (not my area of knowledge) of tories changing a tax credits rule and an income tax rule that had a huge effect on small businesses - and owners of small businesses being shocked the tories 'came after them' when tories are meant to be 'for business' I think I remember it being discussed on this week.

FeistyOldBat well yes, that's really the theory behind people wilfully ignoring the fact that the 'facts' in the msm especially the press is CONTROLLED by extremely wealthy owners whom it suits to have the tories in power.

"The ‘rest’ are all at the mercy of slum-landlords unless they are in social housing." Er I wouldn't be so confident in dismissing social housing from being run by slum-landlords - Grenfell was social housing and since the fire it's become much more we'll known that social tenants aren't protected as well as was thought.

We NEED good, safe, affordable housing for everyone - not just potential buyers. Spending on building/maintaining social housing as well as providing much needed homes would ALSO create jobs and boost the economy...and bring housing prices down. But then as developers are among the top donors to the party hardly surprising it's not happening.

But I see your point about needing to appeal to the new model of working class as opposed to the wc my parents would recognise - and Corbyn is about their age. But then that's a perennial problem with all politicians, they tend to be or at least look/seem older because the electorate doesn't trust younger people to represent them. I get why - we want politicians with some adult life experience of course BUT it can also be good to have the different perspectives, experience and energy of younger people.

And age doesn't necessarily mean better, it can also mean stuck in the past, lacking the knowledge of what life is like for younger constituents now and in the case of career politicians not REALLY knowing what life outside parliament is like but THINKING they do because they had a life outside parliament before they became politicians - but that was 20/30/40 years ago!

"Again, I've not seen anyone labeled thick or racist just because they vote tory, I've seen people's comments criticised because of the content." Sorry but some posters have done this, both sides have thrown ridiculous insults about, it serves no purpose except to alienate the very people they're trying to persuade to think/vote otherwise.

"we are not rich at all though - modest home and car etc etc." It's all relative though isn't it? Eg you're much better off than I am or could ever dream of being. You say you're near the top 10% - just - that makes you a lot wealthier than an awful lot of people.

In terms of electability I'd be very interested to know the thoughts of those that chose NOT to vote, floating voters as they're the ones that can make a real difference. I do wonder how non-voters would vote if it were compulsory - without a 'none of the above' option. Iirc more people didn't vote in 2010 than voted Tory.

"But it isn’t a strawman is it? The question is ‘why does anyone vote tory?’ The answer of ‘because I can’t possible vote Labour with Corbyn as leader’ is perfectly valid." Except not really - because just as there are labour voters who will ALWAYS vote labour regardless of leader, there are lifelong Tory voters too and I for one would like to understand why - especially when it's not even in their own best interests.

"MO is the same denigrate labour brush Tory ineptitude under the carpet." Have to say I agree with this, it's what's created the myth of

Labour - spendthrifts
Tories - economically sound

Even though the facts disprove it.

Yes topcat - I was so saddened upon hearing of Smiths death, had real hopes for him.

"I honestly don’t know what lives people are living where this government’s policies aren’t hurting them sufficiently to stop voting Tory." Same - the people I know that are Tory voters are constantly complaining about nhs cuts, tax credits cuts, disability benefits cuts, lack of jobs in their industry (housing, education), lack of support for small business - yet somehow don't GET this is what they voted FOR.

"Disabled kids are unimportant, but there was so much uproar about the “dementia tax” that they had to do a U turn." Kids don't vote, disabled people don't vote enough (personally I think it needs to be made easier to vote - that it's still done on paper is ridiculous and exclusive!), oap's (most likely to be affected by dementia tax) DO vote AND are more likely to vote Tory - they may be heartless (the party not necessarily the voters) but they ain't stupid!

I would also like to see POSITIVE reasons for voting Tory put forward, not just 'well what's the alternative', who do they support? What sector of society? Show me they're not heartless, aren't anti-disabled. Because in my 46 years here I've seen no evidence of this.

I despised thatcher BUT at least I could see what she stood for, who she supported, she had a clear rational ideology.

I'd also be interested to know if those who say they are usually labour voters but dislike Corbyn are more blairite labour? skifiend are you more blairite?

TrueBlueYorkshire - my personal problem with UC is its being used to punish the poor. In theory it's a good idea

A one monthly payment like a salary, so when people move on/off benefits it's not the middle of the old system (which I'm on - seriously bonkers in terms of HB 4 weekly, CTR 4 weekly, DLA 4 weekly note NOT calendar monthly like most people's rent and bills ARE, ESA fortnightly - who gets paid or pays for anything fortnightly?!) BUT the tories added in the ideological 6ww which is petty and disgraceful! People on benefits are on them BECAUSE they don't have any other reliable income, quite possible because they're dealing with a MASSIVE life changing event like a bereavement or accident - the last thing they need is to be worried sick how the fuck they're going to pay the rent and not get evicted TOO!

B - adjustable each month to allow for people working temp, variable hours jobs - again great in theory - in practice the system can't even cope with claimants being in a regular salaried position which due to the nature of our calendar means there are occasionally 2 payments in one "month" and no payments in a month either side which is fucking up people's MUCH NEEDED money and causing no doubt more work for dwp than is necessary - as per usual because the systems weren't properly tested by people who know how the real world works, and it was rushed in. - also struggles to cope with sick leave, annual leave, maternity leave/payments, changes to claimants circumstances like rent increases (regular normal fact of life) - total fucking farce! This was the part that was supposed to make it so most claimants would consider working at least a few hours in temp/zero hours work as they'd then not have the 'excuse' of 'it'll fuck up my money'.

C was supposed to work more smoothly for claimants moving back into work after being long term unemployed so they weren't disadvantaged by accidental overpayments that had to be repaid, long waiting times to go back on benefits if working didn't work out.

One of the main reasons claimants are nervous of going back to work and coming off benefits is the risk! These people don't have a safety net of savings.

Especially sick/disabled people who weren't/aren't sure how much work they were up to doing/need to gradually build up hours - see point A.

The reality has been people new to the workplace not getting payments in time, not having the money to get to work and losing their new job. Or being left drowning when a payment is supposed to only reduce slightly and instead is reduced greatly with no warning.

And that's before you even get started on rape clauses, transfer protection loopholes being used, the nasty sanction system, journals being altered falsely etc.

"Austerity tends not to work in terms of getting the economy to grow, what it does do is allow the defunding of public services." Have to agree with this. The majority of people aren't rich. The rich when times are tight cut back and rely on savings - the poor don't have savings. The rich in times of wealth tend to save rather than truly increase their spending. The poor when they have more money spend it, it moves back into the economy and grows it. Because if the poor save - they're penalised! So there's little point in saving!

"so I'm more likely to save that rather than spend it in the real economy." Thanks for saying that.

Higher rate tax payers that are feeling squeezed - would lower house prices help?

Personally - and I know I'll get flamed have before - I think:

Sort UC out so it works to the advantage of the claimants in terms of

Short waiting time
Truly flexible payments
Sort the glitches - like the 5 week month crap
Make sanctions sensible not draconian as they are now!
Build in 3 months overlap for returners to work as a safety net.

THEN people will trust the system enough to RISK trying for a job they've not done before, increasing hours etc.

I'd also institute a REAL living wage - when people are earning better, they spend more as I said. But ALSO carrot not just stick for getting people off benefits! The idea that far too many have that benefits is a golden goose is bonkers!

This is a very personal one I'll admit my bias here -

Encourage employers to get on board with people working from home! Proper correctly paid jobs not scams.

The tech (inc even bloody checking if employees are 'really working') has been there for YEARS. Many jobs can be done from home. This would make it far easier for sick and disabled people to work. I suspect it would also mean many carers and parents to young DC could work too.

It is happening in some sectors and with larger employers but far too slowly.

I'm housebound for a variety of reasons. I have friends that aren't working due to disability but who COULD work from home more easily than going to a workplace, mainly because their home is adapted to their needs. I have a relative who was a carer for a long time, but who had a professional career before that, which if employers had been more open-minded she could have worked for several years longer than she did.

It's crazy to lose workers, skills AND be paying benefits to people who COULD work if they were supported to work at home.

It can also be a stepping stone to returning to 'normal' out of the work jobs, help people maintain skills and knowledge.

I also think the crap re making the sick/disabled jump through SO many hoops to get benefits is counterproductive even aside from the compassion argument. It results in additional stress - which we know leads to worse health for many conditions - which means more pressure/cost on the nhs!

Plus of course poverty leads to an increase in crime. Certainly where I live there's been an increase in crimes like shoplifting not by people who do huge amounts of it for profit (which I know also exists) but by people just literally not having the money to eat! So again, punishing people by pushing them into more poverty is counterproductive.