To think MN needs its feminists?

[crunchymint]

Sites like MN need its users to generate content. We are its product. All services need something unique about them to differentiate themselves from the competition. At one time what differentiated MN from its competitors was that there were more intelligent discussions on here.
Now the same type of discussions happen on MN as elsewhere.

What differentiates MN from its competitors are the large number of feminists on here. That is what is unique about this site. To keep going as a decent ongoing commercial concern, MN needs its feminists. Otherwise it has nothing to differentiate it from other sites.

N.B What differentiates NM is that its local sites are far superior to any other site.

I believe transwomen have the same innate "womanness" as I do

Me too.

That is precisely zero, 0%, nada.

Wtf even is innate womanness? The only innately womanly thing about me is my female biology. Without that I have no way of feeling like a woman. I feel like an introvert, I feel creative, i feel very loving towards my friends and family, I feel tired a lot of the time, but I don’t feel like a woman except when I’m being treated like one because of my female biology.

@MyRelationshipIsWeird Not sure it was clear I was talking about academic scholarships there. Unless you believe biological males are more intelligent than biological females!

I believe more transwomen are in danger when accessing men's spaces than natal women ever could be from transwomen accessing women's spaces. I believe that is the most important issue

R Kelly believed he could fly, he believed he could touch the sky. That does not make it so.

@MyRelationshipIsWeird Well there we go - we can't possibly agree because we have a fundamentally different belief about what makes a woman.

I can see that you're as genuinely outraged by my beliefs as I am by yours. I believe those opposing views make debate fundamentally impossible.

Peachgreen, thank you. I’m with you on your opinions.

@BertrandRussell The reason I've continued this conversation with you is because I can see that you genuinely do want to discuss the details, and not in order to insult me or label me a TRA or whatever. I don't mean to sound patronising there, I just mean that I appreciate what you're saying. I think the only difference in our viewpoint is that my position would be to allow transwomen the same rights as women by default, and then handle the outlying issues eg sport, whereas you I believe would prefer that the outlying issues are sorted first. That's a valid viewpoint.

Back to the sport thing - I honestly don't know what the right answer is. I agree that it's unfair on female athletes if trans competitors have a natural genetic advantage. But where do we draw the line? Height categories for pole vaulting? Stride length categories for runners etc etc? I genuinely believe it has to be assessed on a case by case basis depending on the level of genetic advantage and I don't know enough about sport to make a call one way or the other.

@peachygreen how are trans women in danger from not being able to compete against biological females in sports? You may not care about girls and women's sports but I do.

And with regard to toilets etc they have been accessing them for years - it's only now they are saying you don't need to have any surgery or have hormone treatment or even look like a woman to be a trans woman that a problem has arisen. As this has led to people who look clearly male accessing all these spaces.

Again, if I request a woman for a smear test for example, I want it carried out by a biological woman, a female. Not a male who identifies as a woman.

Yesterday in the newspapers there were two reports of male gynocologists up in court for sexually assaulting patients. I feel my danger from a male does not decrease merely because he says he identifies as a woman.

Not sure it was clear I was talking about academic scholarships there. Unless you believe biological males are more intelligent than biological females. No that wasn’t clear. But if one believes that trans women are biologically male and are not women, then a scholarship set up to help women should be given to a woman, not someone who was born and raised as a boy with the sociological advantages that brings. That they now choose to identify as a woman should not entitle them to a women’s scholarship any more than Rachel Dolezal was entitled to take up a role intended for a BME candidate.

Peach I don't believe genuine transwomen pose a significant risk to natal women in terms of safety.

If you simply say that every time someone who says they are a trans woman attacks a woman "well, they weren't GENUINE", of course you can twist it that way.

But they say they are, I thought you supported people's right to self define their gender?

I believe where there is no biological advantage (politics, scholarships etc) transwomen are as entitled as natal women to make use of those opportunities.

Then that means anyone can take advantage of them, so you may as well not have them at all.

I have already spoken about sport.

Yes, you dismissed it as unimportant because you're not interested in it,iirc? Please correct me if I misremembered.

I don't understand how women's health is at risk from trans women

Aside from risk of rape and pregnancy in what should be safe places for the most vulnerable women in society (eg prisons and refuges and care homes), if women's health funding is spent on trans women, we lose out.

Busy, I just think you can’t penalise trans gynocologists because of the criminal behaviour of some individuals. It needs to be dealt with at a police and court level. Tougher sentencing. Maybe CRB checks for all doctors. Or presence of an additional HCP for all intimate procedures.

It’s like banning men from being Priests. You just can’t treat all men like criminals because some men are pedophiles. THAT is a true violation of human rights in my book.

But this is already happening in sport. Do you think it should stop happening until a solution is found, or should non trans women and girls miss out on their opportunities until we get round to looking at it.....

Sport for me is my peak trans level. Beyond that I’m comfortable with pretty much everything else where reasonable, non-criminal people are just living their lives.

But the advantage of an athlete who has gone through male puberty cf a woman who hasn’t is enormous - increased muscle mass, decreased fat, increased lung capacity and heart muscle. If athletes who have the benefits of testosterone through pubertal growth spurt compete as women regularly then women’s sport is only. Stride length, height what ever are only minor advantages in comparison. Does it matter? I think so. Young girls who strive to compete at elite levels may as well not bother if they’re competing against trans athletes. It doesn’t matter if the post-pubertal testosterone is reduced with hormones, growth during puberty can’t be reduced.

“Busy, I just think you can’t penalise trans gynocologists because of the criminal behaviour of some individuals.”
No, I don’t think you should do that either. But I think you said that you don’t think people should be able to choose the sex of their care giver anyway.....

@Hideandgo

Im certainly not against discussion and consideration of the issues arising with the acceptance of transwomen as equal to women but in my opinion those issues are 100% the fault and responsibility of criminals and predators.

What about issues around sport, healthcare (particularly mental health care), and women only services for victims of DV, rape and sexual abuse?

No but if I or my Muslim mum friends want a biological female for our smears why should we be discriminated against? I know for a fact as I have discussed it with them that if they were not able to guarantee a female then they would not go for the smear test. It would be too upsetting.

I do not believe that a human being can change sex. Because they can't. It is impossible. The most that can be done is cosmetic surgery to resemble the opposite sex. And many no longer even have this surgery.

Back to the sport thing - I honestly don't know what the right answer is. I agree that it's unfair on female athletes if trans competitors have a natural genetic advantage. But where do we draw the line?

We’ve been drawing the line fairly clearly and accurately for years by segregating biological males and biological females. That has had the odd hiccup re intersex athletes but cases such as Semenya [[https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/aug/21/lynsey-sharp-caster-semenya-rio-2016-olympics]] are few and far between. Given the impact that racing against such a formidable opponent had on other women, it’s likely that female athletes will just cease to compete if they are biologically so disadvantaged against their competitors. Have you read about Fallon Fox at all?

Right, this is my last post because I'm with my daughter and she needs my attention! But I will try and address all the points made (not easy on a phone and when there's seven different people all replying to you! This is what makes these threads overwhelming for those of us who are pro-trans rights - we're always outnumbered).

@busyboysmum Transwomen are in danger from not being able to safely access women's spaces. For me, sorting that out is the priority. As I said to Bertrand, we can then deal with issues like sport which are not life-threatening.

Re: accessing women's spaces before hormone treatment or surgery. The problem is that hormone treatment and surgery is difficult to access and can take a long time to start. I don't think this is a bad thing because it's a very serious decision and there should be rigorous protocols. However, it does mean that in the meantime there are lots of trans women who are living as women but have not yet undergone treatment. I believe they should have access to women's spaces.

I believe requesting a biological female for medical treatment is transphobic so that's not really something I would discuss, but even if it does end up being allowed, then requesting a "biological female" is no more effort than requesting a "woman".

Hideandgo answered your point about the gynaecologists.

@MyRelationshipIsWeird All I can really say is that I disagree. I believe the disadvantages faced by trans women outweigh any advantages they gained by being raised as a boy. Also, I believe that transwomen are women AND that they are biologically male. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Sorry, fucked the link

Caster Semenya

Argh, sorry, hit post too soon as my daughter woke up. I'll come back to reply to @GorgonLondon and @BertrandRussell.

“This is what makes these threads overwhelming for those of us who are pro-trans rights - we're always outnumbered”

There is no one on this thread who is not “pro trans rights”. It is so fucking annoying to keep having to say that!

i believe requesting a biological female for medical treatment is transphobic so that's not really something I would discuss, but even if it does end up being allowed

Well that's all religious women excluded from accessing gynae services then.

Agreed Bertrand. We all agree that trans people should be free to live their life without harassment or violence, in the same way that women should be able to. We don’t want trans people to face discrimination at work or elsewhere.

That doesn’t mean we accept that they are women or that we want them performing our smear tests etc. Requesting a biological woman would be seen as transphobia and not allowed.

I don't agree @hideandgo

I don't want the males to have the opportunity to sexually abuse females and then those females to have to go through police, court etc

I just want the right to be able to request a biological female for certain procedures, intimate care etc. How is that transphobic?

You really don’t have to know much about sport to know that biological males are at a huge advantage. All you have to do is look at the pbs and records of kids at any mixed school over the age of about 13/14.

And it is not transphobic to ask these questions.

I find it quite shocking that it would be considered transphobic for someone to request a HCP of the sex they want. And that’s on an every day basis- smears, prostate exams and so on. Never mind in crisis situations.