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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think MN needs its feminists?

369 replies

crunchymint · 18/06/2018 11:51

Sites like MN need its users to generate content. We are its product. All services need something unique about them to differentiate themselves from the competition. At one time what differentiated MN from its competitors was that there were more intelligent discussions on here.
Now the same type of discussions happen on MN as elsewhere.

What differentiates MN from its competitors are the large number of feminists on here. That is what is unique about this site. To keep going as a decent ongoing commercial concern, MN needs its feminists. Otherwise it has nothing to differentiate it from other sites.

N.B What differentiates NM is that its local sites are far superior to any other site.

OP posts:
Rufustheyawningreindeer · 19/06/2018 10:56

There is no one on this thread who is not “pro trans rights”

yep

I'm sure it would be just as irritating the other way round if i said..that this thread has loads of anti women's rights people on it or anti women posters

mirime · 19/06/2018 11:03

I believe requesting a biological female for medical treatment is transphobic so that's not really something I would discuss

Why is it transphobic? If a woman has PTSD from rape or domestic violence and can't tolerate someone who she knows is physically male touching her what is the solution other than to have someone who is physically female treat her?

I know some trans women, not one of them sounds like a TRA, not one of them seems to want to access women's spaces if it makes the women uncomfortable. My day to day experience of these things is completely at odds with what I see online and I struggle with that gap because I don't consider myself trans-phobic yet I know that my views would have me labelled as that just because I'm wary of some of the implications and possible consequences.

Tbh the two biggest red flags for me are #nodebate and the way it appears to be trans women driving the whole thing with very little from trans men.

busyboysmum · 19/06/2018 11:13

Yes this is what seems to have created the current problems.

It the assumption that women's rights can be walked all over without any discussion or objections raised by women. And if women do raise very valid concerns cries of "TERF" which seems to be the new "witch".

And the attacks on women's rights meetings, the bomb threats and the masked thugs.

It's all feeling very much like a war on women and is very scary.

SuperDandy · 19/06/2018 11:15

Rufus, it IS really annoying.

Lifesavingorange has already been there... "Like the vast majority of anti-women’s rights and pro-trans rughts posters your weak, faith based, anti science arguments...."

Nobody likes being thrown into derogatory generalisations like that, and it's completely clear to me that many GC feminists are not anti trans and are able to discuss issues in a civil way. Unfortunately threads are frequently dominated and overwhelmed by posters who can't or won't stay within bounds set MNHQ.

bigKiteFlying · 19/06/2018 11:23

Tbh the two biggest red flags for me are #nodebate and the way it appears to be trans women driving the whole thing with very little from trans men.

yes - why is pro safeguarding always protrayed as anti trans.

The Girl guide thing highlights that - girls who think they made be boys get managed out but transboys oh no safeguading doesn't apply Confused.

The Vale of Glamorgan Council - is worry niether my DS 11 or DD 12 want to change in front of opposite sex any more - it seems a case or trans being more equal than rest.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 19/06/2018 11:28

Absolutely super not going to argue with that

Its one of the reasons I stopped going on the referendum threads

peachgreen · 19/06/2018 11:29

@mirime It would be racist to request a white HCP. However, it would be acceptable if one was suffering from PTSD after being attached by a black person. In a similar vein, it is transphobic to request a non-trans HCP simply because they are trans. But it is acceptable under certain circumstances such as those you describe.

@BertrandRussell I apologise for using the term "pro-trans rights". Just trying to differentiate between GC feminists and those of us who believe transwomen are women. I agree that we need a better term and I didn't mean to suggest everyone on this thread was against trans-rights.

We all agree that trans people should be free to live their life without harassment or violence

But you only believe this up until the point that it starts to impact in any way on natal women's rights, ie free access to women's spaces.

peachgreen · 19/06/2018 11:31

Sorry, that should be "attacked" not "attached" and "I believe it is transphobic", not "it is transphobic".

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 19/06/2018 11:32

ust trying to differentiate between GC feminists and those of us who believe transwomen are women

So what could we say

Cos it would be handy to differentiate between the two

Could it not be GC posters and non critical?

busyboysmum · 19/06/2018 11:36

You can be pro trans rights and not believe that it is possible to change your biological sex. I believe in the right of everyone to have human rights.

But where biological exemptions apply they are there for a reason. Therefore they should remain unless you can tell me a very good reason why they should not.

BertrandRussell · 19/06/2018 11:36

"Just trying to differentiate between GC feminists and those of us who believe transwomen are women."

Well, I am a gender critical feminist. I do not believe that transwomen are women. But I am, to use your phrase "pro trans rights" I am not sure where that puts me in your book. It is utterly blinkered to ignore that fact that there are places where trans rights and women's rights clash. And we have to talk about it and find a way forward. I refuse to accept that I am a transphobe for saying that. But certainly on this site that is what I have been called when I have tried.

GorgonLondon · 19/06/2018 11:38

But it is acceptable under certain circumstances such as those you describe

No, sod that for a game of soldiers

Women (and men) should not have to be forced to recount their traumatic experiences so someone can judge whether or not they 'count' as specially permitted to ask for a medical practitioner of the same sex.

MyRelationshipIsWeird · 19/06/2018 11:39

It would be racist to request a white HCP. However, it would be acceptable if one was suffering from PTSD after being attached by a black person. In a similar vein, it is transphobic to request a non-trans HCP Shock no it would not be acceptable to request a white HCP under any circumstances. But that is very different to requesting a female for a gynaecologal procedure as you well know.

We all agree that trans people should be free to live their life without harassment or violence

But you only believe this up until the point that it starts to impact in any way on natal women's rights, ie free access to women's spaces.

Yes. Correct.

JacquesHammer · 19/06/2018 11:48

I am a feminist.
I am pro-trans rights.

I am concerned that in SOME places the two may not be compatible and it is absolutely isn't transphobic to question and get clarification. Transwomen accessing natal women's sport is a massive area of concern for me.

I am vehemently against TRAs who I believe are doing transpeople a massive disservice.

peachgreen · 19/06/2018 11:49

I really have to leave this thread now because as always it's going in circles and sucking up my whole day. But ultimately @MyRelationshipIsWeird has summed up the difference. I believe transwomen are, in the majority of circumstances*, the minority, more vulnerable group. Therefore I would prioritise the protection of their rights over natal women. If you believe transwomen are men, you will never agree with this because you believe they are at an advantage by virtue of being male, and therefore natal women's rights should be prioritised. That fundamental difference of opinion can't be debated out.

@BertrandRussell I did not mean to offend or to label you transphobic. It was an error in terminology and I apologise again.

Also one final point on HCP - currently you can request a different HCP for any reason, whether someone calls it racist or transphobic or sexist or whatever. You still have that right. And I would not support any change to that.

  • yes there are circumstance where this is untrue, eg sport. But I believe they are the exceptions, not the rule.
peachgreen · 19/06/2018 11:50

Sorry, bold fail.

DN4GeekinDerby · 19/06/2018 12:02

There is room for single sex and identity-based spaces along with open spaces. They all have value and merit. Seeing the value in single sex spaces or wanting a same sex provider only means that, attaching it to trans people doesn't help anyone. Sex and race are not the same thing and mixing the two doesn't help any more than that when people mix up trans issues with intersex issues.

A strict hierarchy of vulnerability doesn't work, we can divide people up an infinite number of ways. Is a natal woman with multiple disabilities more or less vulnerable than a trans woman with none? Is someone who is female and dysphoric more or less vulnerable than someone who identifies as a trans woman who does not a dysphoria diagnosis? Is a man who is a sexual abuse survivor more or less vulnerable than a trans woman who has no abuse history (which, by the research, would put her in the minority)? We could do this all day and it wouldn't do anything. When it comes to the law, everyone should be considered.

I believe the medical professionals who have research and identified gender dysphoria

Gender dysphoria has not been 'identified' and is continuously changing in both medical and political framework. We have decades of research that use it as a symptom that has multiple causes and could lead to a range of diagnoses, not all of which benefit from transition. In the early '00s one of the conditions for which it was a symptom for - Gender Identity Disorder - was tossed out and replaced with gender dysphoria as a diagnosis. This has had pros and cons (part of the reason for this was an attempt to create consistency, the idea being the assessments for transition should take place prior to a gender dysphoria label due to the after method being significantly affected by medical trends. This did not work very well and the lack of consistency is still a major issue). We now have medical professionals who want to toss the whole thing out all together for "gender incongruence" with the distress element reduced or removed.

None of this is 'identifying' gender dysphoria, if anything it seems to be obscuring distress by one's sexed characteristics for many other things. Personally, I think too much of the research and medical framework has gotten wrapped up in politics that the care elements of trying to reduce pain and suffering and maximise wellbeing has been tossed aside for pushing people into various political philosophies. The inconsistency is growing with the entire range from 'informed consent clinics' to places that require years of political hoopjumping to get what should be medical treatment for the minority of dysphoric people who come forward for related medical treatment. Evidence-based practice of multidisciplinary care involving a range of therapies has become mostly ignored with face-to-face time dropping in many places in favour of 'demedicalization' which goes against the research but fits within some political ideologies. I'm against that as someone who has dealt with having gender dysphoria for decades and currently tries to help people dealing with the aftermath of these shifts. If we believe medical research, what is going on is not in line with what is shown to be best for people.

I've been stepping back from the trans threads because, as others said, it does seem the same song and dance every time and I've not seeing anything new really come out for a while. I regularly feel caught in the middle trying to debunk all sides but the same stuff keeps coming up. Honestly, at the moment, I'm happier discussing anything other than how badly gender dysphoria is misunderstood, how badly research is misread (which is usually a favourite of mine), how there have been people fighting for sex neutral facilities and spaces so saying we "should just fight for..." when we have with little support for decades is kinda annoying, how insulting it is when people misuse intersex people for discussions on trans people and the messiness that often comes up like medical abuse and intra-sex violence both of which I think are underresearched.

PrincessCuntsuelaVaginaHammock · 19/06/2018 12:08

While we're on the subject of comparisons between race and sex, the appropriate here isn't asking for a while HCP. It would be a black person requesting a black HCP. Because males and white people have structural power, females and black people don't. In order to be analogous with a woman requesting a member of the same class as her, race situations need to also feature a patient who is a member of the class without structural power wanting someone of the same class as them.

And frankly, given some of the racist history of medicine and what we know even now about eg black people's pain being less likely to be appropriately controlled, a black person wanting a black HCP is completely understandable.

BertrandRussell · 19/06/2018 12:09

See- this is what is so frustrating! you have what looks like a sensible, informative discussion, then the people who can't see any problems say "Oh, I'm sure it'll be all right! Got to go now, Byeeeee!"

MyRelationshipIsWeird · 19/06/2018 12:11

Good point Princess - that does seem very different and you have nailed why.

mirime · 19/06/2018 12:12

@peachgreen

In a similar vein, it is transphobic to request a non-trans HCP simply because they are trans. But it is acceptable under certain circumstances such as those you describe.

Then by some definitions you are now transphobic. According to some TRA's it is the traumatised woman's responsibility to get over her trauma or she is 'literally' responsible for the opppression of trans women - that attitude is what tipped me over from being unquestioningly supportive of trans-rights to being a bit more wary and thinking there does need to be a debate.

GorgonLondon · 19/06/2018 12:41

i believe transwomen are, in the majority of circumstances, the minority, more vulnerable group. Therefore I would prioritise the protection of their rights over natal women.*

Feminism, we have a problem.

GorgonLondon · 19/06/2018 12:41

Bold fail! That first paragraph is, obviously, not me!

sanluca · 19/06/2018 12:42

I believe transwomen are, in the majority of circumstances, the minority, more vulnerable group. Therefore I would prioritise the protection of their rights over natal women. If you believe transwomen are men, you will never agree with this because you believe they are at an advantage by virtue of being male, and therefore natal women's rights should be prioritised. That fundamental difference of opinion can't be debated out.

It is a bit shocking to see it written like that. So transwomen trumps women, well, that is clear then.

So if transwomen want access to all female services and it is really difficult to determine if someone is a 'genuine' transwomen and not a P*sstaker irl and it is transphobic to question the rights of a transwomen then all womens services are now free for all. Right? Or is my logic flawed somewhere?

busyboysmum · 19/06/2018 12:46

This sets it out really clearly and this is why we need to push for the right for the biological exemptions allowed under the Equalities Act to be enforced where necessary.

As women have been saying, if any man can self id as a woman and claim access to these spaces then they become a free for all.