To think MN needs its feminists?

[crunchymint]

Sites like MN need its users to generate content. We are its product. All services need something unique about them to differentiate themselves from the competition. At one time what differentiated MN from its competitors was that there were more intelligent discussions on here.
Now the same type of discussions happen on MN as elsewhere.

What differentiates MN from its competitors are the large number of feminists on here. That is what is unique about this site. To keep going as a decent ongoing commercial concern, MN needs its feminists. Otherwise it has nothing to differentiate it from other sites.

N.B What differentiates NM is that its local sites are far superior to any other site.

I like your posts torn

I do think the question about whether taking DNA samples from men to help solve a crime should include transwomen is a very interesting one. What do people think?

I'd quite like to examine some of the issues around single sex spaces in particular, but I'm not going to turn a blind eye to hostility and prejudice in order to do that

Someone said this on another thread...i dont really understand it

That doesnt mean i want you to explain it to me super but sometimes i just wince at the wording used and i disappear off the thread for a bit

The tone has changed on FWR and i think its important to consider WHY its changed. A whole bunch of active feminist women on there, some have been actually doing stuff for years, others have been supporting the LGBT in physical ways. Lots of lesbians. WHY are some of them so very angry. Could there be a reason

Personally i think yes, i want equal rights for everyone, i use pronouns and ive always used transpeople/man/woman in conversation but it doesnt seem to make a difference that there are a lot of people like me on FWR

And that even the most vocal people on FWR dont want anyharm to anyone, and also want everyone to have rights (where they dont cause harm to everyone else)

@PrincessCuntsuelaVaginaHammock But isn't it possible to see that as the silly behaviour it is (obviously women, both natal and trans, should want to discuss the division of labour) without excluding transwomen as a whole or defining oneself as a gender critical feminist?

The examples given on this thread - and threads like it - are always so extreme - the criminals pretending to be trans in order to access women's prisons, the child rapists lurking in the changing rooms, the sportspeople who are prepared to live as women in order to get a medal etc etc. Of course I don't approve of those things. But in general I am supportive of a genuine transperson's right to live their life as their chosen gender and I believe that transwomen are women, and transmen are men.

I am happy to discuss ways in which we can ensure that only genuine trans people benefit from self ID, or what possible future legislation we might need in women's sports, or whether pre / post op should make a difference etc. But you can't discuss those things without repeatedly confronting language and statements which I personally find offensive and upsetting, encountering frustrating "whataboutery", or being continually reminded that you're trying to discuss these things with someone who is coming at it from a fundamentally different position, one which trans-inclusive feminists find pretty abhorrent. And so we leave.

bertrand

Thats a yes from me re DNA

@BertrandRussell I can't imagine a real life example where it would come up but again, if someone is capable of producing semen they should provide a sample. If not, no need. Nothing to do with gender identity.

There was a village years ago where all the men were DNA tested and the murderer caught

They knew it was a man but just not which one

I think obviously the same would be the case if they knew it was a woman...in theory they could test all the women in the village

"BertrandRussell I can't imagine a real life example where it would come up"
Can't you? I must watch too much crime telly. It seems to happen all the time there!

Sorry, i meant to say that again in theory it would be nothing to do with your reproductive capability

"But in general I am supportive of a genuine transperson's right to live their life as their chosen gender"

So am I. And I realise that the examples people give often seem extreme. But there are already a significant number of transwomen competing, and consistently winning, in women's sport. I am not saying, of course, that they are not genuine transwomen. But they are still at a huge advantage over non trans women. And the statistics for violent sexual crime committed by women has already risen significantly (considering the numbers are small). Two other big concerns I have are the effect on lesbians- I object very strongly to lesbians being labelled transphobic because they do not want to have relationships with people with penises. And a much more mundane issue. I think women should have the right to expect intimate care from a person who is not males bodied. I don't think a frail elderly woman in a care home should have to explicitly object to being cared for by a person with a penis. These are all discussions we need to have. Just #nodebate-ing or calling transphobic will get us nowhere. This is a new thing we are negotiating.

@BertrandRussell The problem, though, is that ultimately I believe those issues are less important than the safety and mental wellbeing of transpeople.

I'm not sure about sport - I don't know if it's any different to taller people being at an advantage or whatever. Should Michael Phelps be banned from swimming because he has may have Marfan syndrome? I honestly don't know. But it's less important to me than allowing transpeople to live as the gender they identify with.

Should lesbians be called transphobic for it wanting to have sex with someone with a penis? No, of course not. And if you find me a trans person claiming this (I'm not refuting they exist) I will argue that with them. Because everyone has the right to refuse sex for any reason. But that is no reason to not allow transpeople to live as the gender they identify with.

And I don't think people should be able to refuse care from transpeople, so that's not really a concern for me.

These are small details in my eyes. I appreciate to you, they're not. But that's where we will always disagree and why I'm not sure there's any point in wading through the mire of what I see a transphobic threads in order to debate these issues.

@PrincessCuntsuelaVaginaHammock But isn't it possible to see that as the silly behaviour it is (obviously women, both natal and trans, should want to discuss the division of labour) without excluding transwomen as a whole or defining oneself as a gender critical feminist?

Well that isn't actually why I define myself as a gender critical feminist, or why I know that transwomen don't face those challenges. So it's slightly odd that you would try and link the two in that way.

But the particular post of mine you're replying to there was in response to a poster who was basically saying too much time is spent discussing trans issues, as though she thinks they can simply be ignored and it's the fault of us gender critical feminists for making the trans situation an issue when we could all just focus on sex discrimination, ie the thing that actually oppresses women, instead. That is unfortunately not the case.

And your feelings, or anyone's, about whether transwomen are women and transmen are men or not don't really have anything to do with this point- so please don't crowbar them in. Even if one did start from the point that transwomen were women, issues like childcare and parental leave are simply much, much more important to women as a group. The problem is with the people who are saying that transwomen need to be centred in feminism, not with those of us who critique that view.

“ultimately I believe those issues are less important than the safety and mental wellbeing of transpeople.”

So the safety and well-being of transpeople trumps the safety and well being of non trans people?

peach green, can I ask- what is the thought process that led you to the conclusion that transwomen are women? This isn’t a trick question or anything, I promise.

@BertrandRussell The safety and well-being of the majority of trans people is more important to me than the possible negative impact on a minority of non-trans people, yes. It's a numbers thing. And that's where we will always fundamentally disagree.

I believe it's more important that transwomen - who are at genuine and proven risk of harm when accessing a men's space - are able to access women's spaces than it is that biological females are "protected" from transwomen.

As for what leads me to believe that transwomen are women - I believe the medical professionals who have research and identified gender dysphoria. I believe being a woman is more than genitalia, more than the ability to birth children, more than the experience of living as a female from childhood. And I believe transwomen have the same innate "womanness" as I do. You may not believe that, and that's your right. But I do, and I don't believe it's a point worthy of argument because for me it's a fundamental truth.

“The safety and well-being of the majority of trans people is more important to me than the possible negative impact on a minority of non-trans people, yes. It's a numbers thing. And that's where we will always fundamentally disagree”

How is the safety and well being of the majority of trans people compromised by not being able to compete against non trans women in sport, win and get a college scholarship? As an example.

Lifesavingorange ".... you don’t engage properly with th convincing and evidence based arguments levelled at your flimsy arguments... Pretty much everything posted by transactivists pushes me further down the GC road."

Again, I don't argue points about the "convincing and evidence based" GC position in self ID, partly because I'm not sure at this point what I think about it.

But it's also partly because I'd quite like to join in, but due to having challenged hostile and prejudiced posts I've been stuck in a box labelled "trans activist" and other posters openly discuss ignoring me and laughing at me and generally trying to shoo me off the porch as an unwelcome intruder. That's not how engagement and discussion work in real life.

Like I've said up thread, balanced discussion is only possible when both sides can be civil. The examples I gave up thread are the more extreme end, and in many ways they are the tip of the iceberg.

I am scrupulous to avoid terms that GC feminists object to, and only "call transphobia" for the extreme stuff.

This thread is about feminism on MN. I am a staunch, lifelong feminist and long term mn user, and have been harried relentlessly on the feminist boards by GC posters. Not because I trash feminism or throw women and children under the bus, but because I take issue with posts that are needlessly cruel and hostile to trans people.

“I take issue with posts that are needlessly cruel and hostile to trans people.”

So do I.

Feminism that prioritises biological males over biological females is not feminism or women's rights

@BertrandRussell But that's whataboutery again, focused on small issues. I am happy to discuss ways in which we should ensure sports and affirmative action aren't impacted (I've already talked about sports and in the case of scholarships I don't believe biological males have any advantage over biological females, so transwomen should be as entitled as natal women to apply for those). But it's like me saying "how is the safety and well-being of natal women compromised by leaflets identifying those in need of cervical smears as "people with cervices"?" You - quite rightly - would argue that that's not the point.

Fundamentally if you believe transwomen are women, what you're arguing is that the rights of a small, vulnerable minority group of women should be protected, even if members of the majority group don't like it. But if you don't believe transwomen are women, then you believe I'm arguing that the rights of men - the group dominant in power - should be protected over the rights of women. I can understand why that's so abhorrent to people. And I don't believe anyone's mind can be changed on that particular topic through debate.

peach How can you dismiss women's sports, women's personal safety from assault and rape in prisons, refuges, hospitals, schools and changing rooms, women's representation in politics and media (eg AWS), girls' opportunities to take part in activities, and women's health as 'small issues'?

@peachgreen
@BertrandRussell The safety and well-being of the majority of trans people is more important to me than the possible negative impact on a minority of non-trans people, yes. It's a numbers thing. And that's where we will always fundamentally disagree.

If it's a numbers thing then surely there will be so many women and girls disadvantaged compared to the tiny amount of trans people. Surely the rights of 51% of the population should prevail.

I don't think it is Whataboutery. I have said several times that I think trans people should have all the rights that anyone else has. On a normal day to day basis I can't see any difficultly. It's what you would call small issues, which impact significantly on individuals tht need to be hammered out. I think sport is a useful proxy for this discussion because it's an issue where biology is important. Should a person who has trained as a man and has male strength be able to compete on a level playing field with someone who has trained as a woman and has female strength? Because person A is always going to win. By definition.

(I've already talked about sports and in the case of scholarships I don't believe biological males have any advantage over biological females. huh?!

@GorgonLondon I don't believe genuine transwomen pose a significant risk to natal women in terms of safety. I believe where there is no biological advantage (politics, scholarships etc) transwomen are as entitled as natal women to make use of those opportunities. I have already spoken about sport. I don't understand how women's health is at risk from trans women.

@busyboysmum Put more simply, I believe more transwomen are in danger when accessing men's spaces than natal women ever could be from transwomen accessing women's spaces. I believe that is the most important issue.