To think MN needs its feminists?

[crunchymint]

Sites like MN need its users to generate content. We are its product. All services need something unique about them to differentiate themselves from the competition. At one time what differentiated MN from its competitors was that there were more intelligent discussions on here.
Now the same type of discussions happen on MN as elsewhere.

What differentiates MN from its competitors are the large number of feminists on here. That is what is unique about this site. To keep going as a decent ongoing commercial concern, MN needs its feminists. Otherwise it has nothing to differentiate it from other sites.

N.B What differentiates NM is that its local sites are far superior to any other site.

hesmyworld Intimate spaces and refuges etc I can see, and would support, a case for an exemption of, similarly with sport (although I don't watch sport and have no interest in it so I'm not that bothered about it).

Not being personally interested in sport is not a reason to not care about what's happening to women's sports.

I very much hope I'll never be in a women's refuge or prison, but that doesn't mean I don't care about the women who are.

Glad to see that you would support exemptions in these cases, but that would make you transphobic according to trans rights activists.

You mean a female transperson who takes testosterone?

I think this thread is a clear representation of what lies ahead if we do not oppose self id. It makes interesting reading for sure.

- you can refuse the procedure

And patients who are vulnerable? Do they just lump it? The Alzheimer’s suffers? The women too shy to say no?

We see time and time again on threads about childbirth that women’s consent is neither sought, nor listened to. That women have felt deeply embarrassed, afraid or simply been unable to know that they were allowed to withdraw consent at any time and as a result have been subjected to procedures they didn’t want or consent to.
Many women would be uncomfortable with actively saying no to a HCP. By putting that Person in the room to do their smear they are relying on the patient to excercise their right and pushing the potential conflict. That is not how it should be - it should be the HCPs role to reduce that potential conflict before it arises.

They are not allowing free consent because there’s an embarrassment/coercion /vulnerability factor there.

It cannot be free informed consent and thus it should not happen.

If a patient has specified they want a same sex provider and they are sent someone who the patient does not see as the same sex as them, you have to ask why? Because the only answer is that the needs of the patient have been put below the desires of the HCP and that should never happen.

There has been a huge campaign to try to increase take up of smear tests and this is doing nothing but damage, and all you are doing, Rat , is repeatedly sneering at and dismissing women's experiences and difficulties.

I'll be honest Gorgon, I'm fucked off. This is not dismissing women's experience, this is solving women's problems. And for as long as women like you refuse to accept solutions that would be better for all women (see seeking positive consent from patients) because they don't fit your trans-critical agenda then I am going to get increasingly annoyed about that.

Because you can turn this into "Rat dismisses women's concerns" all you like, but the fact of the matter is I'm not the one here batting away resolutions that see vulnerable women empowered and protected; who here is dismissing those women? Who is dismissing all the women for whom the knowledge and confidence to clearly express or deny consent over their bodies would be a hugely beneficial thing? Which one of us wants what is best for them, not just for the women who don't want a trans woman touching them?

I'm here for all women. I'm looking to protect the interests of all women. Not just the women who share my discomfort with trans.

I'd be fine if I requested a biological female and she did not appear to be presenting as a woman. If I could trust that in fact she was a biological female that would be sufficient for me. So therefore I am not transphobic, I am just male phobic for certain intimate procedures.

And patients who are vulnerable? Do they just lump it? The Alzheimer’s suffers? The women too shy to say no?

See previous post to Bertrand about HCPs seeking positive consent.

Rat you're 'fucked off'? Oh well then, debate over, everyone, Rat is annoyed because he/she has the perfect solution and we're just all too dim to see it. Phew

Your sneering, contemptuous, mocking, dismissive tone towards women who have suffered appallingly, who do not have the confidence or the self-assurance or the language skills to speak up for themselves, is crystal clear.

So please don't try to kid anyone that you're presenting some brilliant solution that's going to magically empower the most vulnerable women in our society, when what you're actually doing is prioritising the feelz of people with male bodies who will be terribly hurt if anyone dares to acknowledge the reality of those bodies.

hesmyworld I haven't ordered you to do anything, or hectored you. IF you say that other posters have done, that's between you and them.

How about any of the substantive points in my post that was a response to yours?

Oh absolutely dismissive and just not listening. Well said Gorgon.

These posts should stand. They're so revealing.

Add me to the list of women who find themselves easily able to cope with causing annoyance to someone who minimises and dismisses women's health and concerns.

Gorgon I've already had that pointed out to me and been told that I must specifically acknowledge it.

Not "it would be good if" or "it would help if" but I must.

When was this?

I don't think I have hectored anyone have I? I apologise if I have come across as doing that. I think difference of opinion is essential if we are going to come to a conclusion and a situation that works for everyone.

Where the waters are muddied seems to be the legal fiction that it is possible to change your legal sex. Biological sex cannot be changed. It is fixed at birth.

It might be necessary to remove the possibility to change sex, allow anyone to self identify as the gender they prefer and then ramp up the biological protections. That would give clarity.

But rat they are still NOT seeking consent freely because the patient is under duress

In clinical trials, that would breach GCP guidelines for obtaining consent - it wouldn't be allowed. It is the situation of placing the patient in a situation they don’t want and making them say no thatscthe problem. That’s NOT positive consent.

Positive consent is and can only be given in a neutral setting with no pressure on the patient.

Oh sorry, is it only "GC" feminists who are allowed to get angry?

My sneering, contempt and mocking (such as you see them, as that's not what they are) are directed solely at the close-mindedness and single issue "feminists" I encounter on these threads.

I'm angry and I'm not sorry. I'm angry because you only care when women like you are dismissed. You only care when women like you get to feel better. And you'll only feel better if the solution slaps trans people in the face. Don't paint yourself as defender of the vulnerable; you defend anybody whose cause enables you to push your agenda, and anybody whose doesn't you would leave them to sink.

I don't know what makes you think you can know "women's rights" when you don't seem to have a concept of basic HUMAN rights in the first place. One is just a nonsense without the other.

I believe we should learn from Ireland who have, from what I have been able to find out, implemented self ID without much trauma

You have no idea if this is true. It's an empty claim. Reporting trauma and upset will be deemed transphobic so it's ludicrous to claim this.

hesmyworld if you characterise all my (and everyone else's) posts as 'hectoring' while ignoring all of the points raised, there's no way for me to respond to you or discuss constructively. Soz.

Positive consent is and can only be given in a neutral setting with no pressure on the patient.

How do you propose to remove the pressure or coercion of someone's wanting a procedure? Because that is surely the nature of the "pressure" you're referring to?

Rat you seem to think that it's all about who can say "I'm angry" the most times.

I haven't said anything about my emotions. I don't think how I feel is in any way relevant to the issues of law, ethics and rights being discussed on this thread.

You can carry on shouting about your emotions as much as you like but they're neither here nor there.

Gorgon my emotions and whether or not I choose to name them in my posts are not all about you. Sometimes a woman can use her voice to express something for herself. And my anger is important to me. As it is that I express that.

I'll admit, I don't normally - not normally my style - but fuck me if I'm being accused of dismissing women in a discussion where the only women being dismissed are aaaalllllll the ones whose cause fails to call for the outing of trans women.

Anyway, glad that's out the way.