To think MN needs its feminists?

[crunchymint]

Sites like MN need its users to generate content. We are its product. All services need something unique about them to differentiate themselves from the competition. At one time what differentiated MN from its competitors was that there were more intelligent discussions on here.
Now the same type of discussions happen on MN as elsewhere.

What differentiates MN from its competitors are the large number of feminists on here. That is what is unique about this site. To keep going as a decent ongoing commercial concern, MN needs its feminists. Otherwise it has nothing to differentiate it from other sites.

N.B What differentiates NM is that its local sites are far superior to any other site.

peach I noticed in your earlier post that you, like me, are the mother of a young daughter.

Are you really happy to tell her that she has no right to ask for a female hcp to carry out any intimate exams she may need, and that she must allow anyone calling themselves a woman, even if obviously biologically male, to access her body?

How can you feel that's ok?

If I've got to choose between being labelled transphobic and having a biological woman carry out my smear test, then I'm going to have to take the label

Oh FFS Gorgon, no-one is allowed to touch your body without your consent, not even an HCP, not even for a medically indicated procedure. No-one "must allow" any HCP "access to their body" for any reason, at any time. I don't know what you're teaching your daughter about her rights regarding healthcare and consent, but I'll be teaching mine what I've written above and I reckon that'll do her just fine.

And on the subject of MN and feminists; MN will always have feminists. For as long as it has women there will be feminists. There will be women who stand up for themselves and their sisters, women who don't need you or I or anybody else on here today to hold their hands in order that they might stand the fuck up. There will always be strong women. There will always be feminists.

Does it need any particular feminists? No, I think it does not.

"No-one "must allow" any HCP "access to their body" for any reason, at any time."

Well, it sounds as if they must, if they want whatever procedure it is.

Oh FFS Gorgon, no-one is allowed to touch your body without your consent, not even an HCP, not even for a medically indicated procedure. No-one "must allow" any HCP "access to their body" for any reason, at any time. I don't know what you're teaching your daughter about her rights regarding healthcare and consent, but I'll be teaching mine what I've written above and I reckon that'll do her just fine.

I'm certainly not going to tell her that if she feels uncomfortable about someone who's obviously male but claims that they're a woman touching her, she's transphobic.

Or that she should be afraid to ask for an actual female to carry out her smear test, or any other intimate exam, for fear of being labelled a bigot.

Or that if there's an obviously male person sharing her tent/dormitory on a residential camp or in a hostel, that she's wrong to feel that they shouldn't be there.

As women we have had almost everything else taken away from us, but even the old-fashioned sexists of our fathers'/grandfathers' generations understood that there is a fundamental difference between a male and a female being in an intimate situation.

Well, it sounds as if they must, if they want whatever procedure it is.

If I want a specific procedure at a specific time then I may only select from the HCPs available at that time. I have the right to not consent. I don't have the right to not spared inconvenienced of rearranging. What practical and ethical arrangement would you prefer?

..to be spared, not to not spared

"What practical and ethical arrangement would you prefer?"

A PP has said that it would be transphobic to request an appointment with a biological woman. Another PP has said that we should not have the right to request a particular sex of HCP at all.

That works for elective healthcare, but not in situations where you need emergency care. You need to take whoever is there.

Oh FFS Gorgon, no-one is allowed to touch your body without your consent, not even an HCP, not even for a medically indicated procedure. No-one "must allow" any HCP "access to their body

The worrying thing about this is that there are some people who cannot see that there is potential for misuse of this legislation and that saying that there is potential for misuse is not, by any stretch of the imagination, saying that there are people out there who, en masse, will take advantage in some way.

Whether you can see it or not, there is potential for women to have to forgo intimate medical procedures because they would rather not have a man perform it. It is a dangerous path we are going down and both women and trans women will be affected.

If you can't see the issue with the NHS having to skirt around the use of the word woman when referring to smear testing for fear of upsetting women who don't have a cervix then my goodness, there is no hope, is there?

What practical and ethical arrangement would you prefer?

According to previous posters on this thread, no one should be allowed to request a practitioner of a particular sex (added caveat: unless in 'very special circumstances', so presumably there would need to be some sort of adjudicator who could listen to that particular person's specific reasons and judge whether or not they were 'allowed' to request a male/female)

I would like the 'practical and ethical arrangements' to be as they have been up until very recently, that anyone has the right to request a medical practitioner of a specific sex and to have that respected.

I think that it is possible to overplay the actual physical risks that SI might pose. But I really hate the idea of no trans women losing rights to transwomen.

I suspect saying you don't want someone to perform a smear on you because they are trans, might not be taken seriously. But you can always ask for a smear to be performed by a nurse you know - just say you are very nervous and have always found her to be kind.

A PP has said that it would be transphobic to request an appointment with a biological woman. Another PP has said that we should not have the right to request a particular sex of HCP at all.

You can request an appointment with anyone you like, but they can only appoint you an HCP on the basis of information they're privy to. If you get there and for whatever reason you aren't comfortable with the HCP allocated you can request another; if that is not possible then you can rearrange.

That is the arrangement as it currently is, and I think it's a perfectly balanced solution. Would you expect trans person to be outed so as to spare a patient the inconvenience? If so, I'm not sure you're as "pro trans" as you think you are.

And yes, in an emergency situation we're generally all very grateful to whoever is there to treat us at the time.

You know, I find it very depressing that any concerns non trans women might have are just brushed aside. The way the discussion on sport earlier in this thread went is a perfect example.

It highlights where we are sleepwalking to me.

Everyone knows what biological sex they are.

What's "brushed aside" about saying no-one has the right to touch your body if you don't want them to?

Just because a situation is resolved, does not mean it is brushed aside. Even if it isn't the resolution that you would prefer.

Woman doesn't want trans person doing her intimate exam. Woman doesn't have to have trans person doing her intimate exam. Resolved.

Smears are difficult things for many women. And if you feel uncomfortable with whoever is performing the smear, you will tense up more.
I already refuse to have a nurse at my surgery do a smear on me.

"Would you expect trans person to be outed so as to spare a patient the inconvenience?"
No. But it would take more confidence than most people have to say that you don't want a particular practitioner. And places like rape crisis centres are staffed as far as possible by women. It would be very hard to reject an obviously transwomen practitioner in those circumstances. I know this isn't day to day stuff. But it's important.

"Woman doesn't want trans person doing her intimate exam. Woman doesn't have to have trans person doing her intimate exam. Resolved."
So what does she say?

I'm very much of a live and let live attitude. I don't know what feels like a woman means but if someone else of either sex feels like a woman and wants to present as one, that's fine with me.

Intimate spaces and refuges etc I can see, and would support, a case for an exemption of, similarly with sport (although I don't watch sport and have no interest in it so I'm not that bothered about it).

Speaking of harrying and dissent from party lines, that last paragraph makes you a T**f in certain circles, you know. And therefore guilty of literal violence and ripe for being punched in the face etc. Just something to ruminate on.

So what does she say?

"I'm sorry, I don't consent to this exam. Is there someone else I can speak to please?"

Yes? "Hello, is there someone else who could perform this exam today please?"

No to either question? "Okay, I'll leave it for now.. I'll rearrange mu appointment. Thanks!"

Bertrand there will always be people less able to consent. HCP are supposed to specifically gain consent for performing exams/anything that involves touching your body, which should make it easier for people to say no. They asked me every time they examined me when I was induced with my first. I don't suppose this is prevalent enough in the health service - I will happily campaign for HCPs to take seeking positive consent far more seriously so as to protect more vulnerable people.

So the conversation should go...

HCP: are you comfortable for me to perform this exam?

Me: Er, maybe, um, I don't know, I guess...

HCP: Okay, you have to be sure before I can do it. I don't want to do something you're not comfortable with.

Me: Okay...well, I'm... sort of comfortable... maybe.

HCP: Let me see if there is someone else here you can speak to before I proceed.

I had almost the exact conversation above with a male surgeon before my second section. He went to get a female doctor because he couldn't work out what I wasn't comfortable with (it was just last minute nerves) and didn't want to do anything without my full consent.