To be sick of women being told to exercise 'situational awareness'

[Quantumblue]

In Melbourne we have just had another sickening rape and murder of a young woman. A 22 year old comedian, walking home at 10.30 pm after finishing a gig. Through an inner city park where thousands of people walk, run, cycle and hang out each week.
The police response has been to tell women to exercise caution and situational awareness.
So upset at this loss ( she was at school with my nephew) and so upset that the solution is for women to be more aware. We are all aware of danger every time we go out our front doors.
RIP Eurydice

I would say this story is in the worldwide news because it is so rare and because it unfortunately is the epitome of a stranger rape and murder - straight out of everyone’s worst nightmares.

I know of two women who were raped and murdered while walking through a park late at night. I knew one of them personally. I didn't know the other person but the park was very close to my house at the time. I don't know why this case had made worldwide news but unfortunately it's not because it is incredibly rare.

I factor the risk of rape into my decision making in just the same way as I factor all the other many risks life presents: based on my necessarily imperfect, but nonetheless helpful, information and experience.

I don't know why this case had made worldwide news but unfortunately it's not because it is incredibly rare.

Exactly. I’m willing to bet that nobody outside the Netherlands has heard of Anne Faber, who went out for a bike ride and never came home. That was last October. (A sadface seems trite so I’ll skip it, but let’s just say it brings me no joy whatsoever to present an example.)

www.dutchnews.nl/news/2017/10/police-find-body-of-missing-anne-faber-in-flevoland-nature-reserve/

Is this thread about rape or about murder? Eurydice was murdered.

The way to keep women safe would be for them not to be in relationships with men. People suggest avoiding dark places, parks taxis etc etc. They don't suggest avoiding relationshis. Is that because that suggestion would inconvenience men.

Relationships even.

They don't suggest avoiding relationshis. Is that because that suggestion would inconvenience men.

For individuals, the risk of attack if walking in a park at night is much higher than the risk by having a relationship. Also, not having relationships with men would have a huge negative impact on most women's lives whereas avoiding walks in deserted parks at night will not.

We all assess risk constantly, men and women, but women should be free to roam at night if they want to.

Mr Loophole (motoring lawyer - male of course) tweeted the other day along the lines of women should not be dressed so that upskirting can happen. I hope someone photographs him on a beach in his shorts this summer.

There is no such thing as elimination of risk. To act in accordance with an ideal world as opposed to risk-assessed reality is irresponsible/arrogant/naive. We can all strive for a better world while taking reasonable precautions in the world we have.

Am I the only one who finds this whole "women need to keep themselves safe" thing very confusing?

On one hand we have it constantly drilled into us from an early age that we need to keep ourselves safe and not put ourselves in risky situations. We are told that we need to be wary, not get too drunk and dress modestly.

Every time someone hurts a woman and she has broken any of these 'rules' or done something that could be deemed reckless or risky in the lead up to the event then you can guarantee there will be an army of cheerleaders out in full force to tell us what she did wrong. They will remind us yet again that we need to keep ourselves safe and that we shouldn't do a, b or c because if we do then x, y and z will happen.

On the other hand, whenever women do try and take precautions and try and talk to each other about how we can keep ourselves safe then you can guarantee that there will be an army of people waiting to yell "feminazi!" and "man haters!" at us.

You even see it all the time on here. I've lost count of the number of threads/posts I've seen here where a woman has talked about situations with men where she has felt uncomfortable or wary and got herself out of that situation as a result. Only for people to pile on and tell her how ridiculous she's being, how not all men are rapists and that she needs to quit tarring all men with the same brush.

This thread right here is the perfect example of that. Woman is in what could be described as a vulnerable situation alone with a strange man. She doesn't feel comfortable so gets herself the hell out of there. And what happens? There are posters who are quick to tell her how unreasonable she is and "but oh, won't somebody think of the men's feelings?". I guarantee that if she had helped him and he had assaulted her then the same people to tell her she is being unreasonable would no doubt be telling her how silly she was for putting herself in that risky situation and not getting herself out.

People can't have it both ways. Either women need to take precautions or they don't. But don't tell us that we need to keep ourselves safe and then get mad at us when we do exactly that. It's just stupidity.

And honestly, what woman doesn't take precautions?

We might not do it all the time. A lot of the time we are not even aware we are doing it and it's entirely subconscious but we are nevertheless taking precautions. Like I said, we have it drilled into us constantly from an early age in a way which men don't.

My DP for instance won't think twice about taking a short cut through a park or an alley after a night out whereas I would just never do that. I would always stick to well lit main roads even if it does mean that it takes me longer to get home.

I know that this isn't unique to my DP or myself either. Pretty much every single one of my male friends and relatives won't think twice about going for a jog when it's getting dark in a rural area. My female friends and relatives however will no doubt hesitate about doing so.

Statistically men are far more likely to be victims of violent crime perpetrated by strangers than women are. Yet you never hear men being told to take precautions.

When a man is doing something reckless and someone assaults him, mugs him or rapes him there is never an army of people ready to crawl out of the woodwork to tell him what he did wrong and how men need to not put themselves in these situations to begin with.

In fact even the mere suggestion that men should avoid being out alone after a certain time or that they should stop doing certain things or going certain places is often met with laughter and raised eyebrows. Funny that.

This

If you're afraid (and risk asses and avoid situations) you are hysterical,over reacting,man hater,you can't live your life like that etc.

If you're not afraid(expect to be able to live freely and make your own choices) you're arrogant,naive,stupid etc.

No matter what they do women are in the wrong. They have every choice dissected,analysed and put under the microscope until a reason why she is in the wrong is found.

In the meantime men just carry on doing what they always did...

If it isn't safe for women to go out alone, or walk home alone because men might attack them, then surely it is men who should be pressured to stay in?

This thread right here is the perfect example of that. Woman is in what could be described as a vulnerable situation alone with a strange man. She doesn't feel comfortable so gets herself the hell out of there. And what happens? There are posters who are quick to tell her how unreasonable she is and "but oh, won't somebody think of the men's feelings?". I guarantee that if she had helped him and he had assaulted her then the same people to tell her she is being unreasonable would no doubt be telling her how silly she was for putting herself in that risky situation and not getting herself out.

Oops, copy and paste job from the other thread about this and forgot to repost the link.

I was talking about this thread here www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2894026-wibu-to-have-abandoned-this-guy-at-a-petrol-station

Two women a week are murdered by their partners so no statistically it is safer to be in a park at nighttime. Men hurt women, parks at night not so much.

@DontDribbleOnTheCarpet not to mention that when they do take precautions they end up getting raped/assaulted anyways..by the male friend walking them home,the male taxi driver,the male partner of the mate they stayed over at etc.

The common thread/threat here is males, not parks,taxis or whatever.

Two women a week are murdered by their partners so no statistically it is safer to be in a park at nighttime.

That isn't correct. Women hardly ever walk through parks late at night whereas millions have partners so hardly surprising that more are killed by partners. The risk to an individual woman who walks through a park late at night is much higher than her risk of being killed by her partner. You should compare the proportion of women killed when walking through parks late at night to the proportion of women killed by their partners, not the absolute numbers.

@Dungeondragon15 you know what? I'll give you parks at night. No more parks at night.

What about carparks at night?
What about a residential road not very well lit?
What about a road that has fields/parks on one side or both?
What about empty buses/tubes?

Don't forget in winter it often gets dark around 5pm and the sun rises late.
Don't forget not all women drive.
Don't forget some women work shift work.
Don't forget women have jobs and responsibilities and still enjoy dog walks/running/jogging.

RebelRogue Yes, obviously not just dark parks are high risk. I haven't said otherwise. Some of the other things you mention are also quite high risk although I don't think the fact that it's dark is risky in itself if there are plenty of other people around.

I would be interested in how they would measure those statistics. Lots of woman walk in the dark I did it frequently in my youth, as did most of the women I know. It is not parks streets or back alleys that are dangerous it is men. If people are to be told not to walk in these frightening places it needs to be men. What people are actually saying when they say dont walk in the park in case you get raped/murdered is in fact make sure that the woman who
gets raped is someone else not you. Rapists won't not rape because there is no one in the park. They will just rape in another place on another day. Women are not a group of wild animals where the most vulnerable are to be 'picked off' , what don't walk there means is let them rape another woman, one who is lost, drunk, one with no money walking home after a night shift.

Lots of woman walk in the dark I did it frequently in my youth, as did most of the women I know.

Walking in the dark is necessarily risky though if there are other people around.

If people are to be told not to walk in these frightening places it needs to be men.

Yes, men should be given the same message.

What people are actually saying when they say dont walk in the park in case you get raped/murdered is in fact make sure that the woman who gets raped is someone else not you. Rapists won't not rape because there is no one in the park. They will just rape in another place on another day.

That assumes that they only want to attack one woman and that if they can't do that they will attack someone else instead. Why should that be the case? There's not a limit on the number of women they can attack. Maybe the only thing that reduces the number of people a serial rapist/murderer attacks is lack of opportunity.

is necessarily risky isn't necessarily risk

Maybe the only thing that reduces the number of people a serial rapist/murderer attacks is lack of opportunity.

Except that there always is an opportunity.

Yes always another opportunity always another place always another woman. Women not being out at night won't stop rape just move it elsewhere. It's a very comforting story to tell and I understand why people tell it, it reassures them that there is a way to avoid this happening to them. But it's not true. People have been singing this song for years, one in 5 women are raped, some statistics in younger women indicate its 1 in 3. As a crime prevention strategy its pants. The 2 very near misses two of my friends had were on a beach in daylight, and on a main road during the day.

Except that there always is an opportunity.

There isn't always the opportunity to rape and murder without getting caught.