To wonder how many of you are ready for hard Brexit now

[keyboardkate]

I took on the mantle to start another thread. If that is not allowed, Mods delete the thread, I am not sure of the protocol. But it certainly is an interesting discussion!

If allowed to stay as my OP, let's go!

My stance is...I think it was a stupid decision to leave the EU, yes, but I think it could have been prevented.

If the government controlled immigration a lot better, then Brexit wouldn't have happened.

As it is, people can come from all over the world, barely speak english, but can get a job (a lot less paid than English person), get thousands of pounds worth of NHS treatments, benefits to top up their low income, get pregant and live off benefits though they've only been in the country for a year.

Yes Brexit is going to kick us in the arse but our goverment brought it on themselves.

You seem fixated on making people do things.

or you seem fixated on imaginary workforces as British farmers watch their produce rot in fields because of Brexit.

Frequency
Rig workers are well paid. And all of those jobs are permanent.

they are well paid (hence the encouragement) but they are not secure or permanent and you can be NFR'd on the way back from the rig.

The Rationale? Identity.

What does that even mean?

Identity - far too big and much too subtle to be explained in a single post

Identity - far too big and much too subtle to be explained in a single post

so you've no idea then.

GhostofFrankGrimes

Nothing imaginary about a movable workforce if they have incentives to do so (oil rigs, ships crews, forces, even butlins etc.)

And if the growers were so bothered about their produce they would do something.

but as only 21% from your link actually state that they don't have enough workers they aren't going to do anything.

If it pleases you to think that, go right ahead.

And if the growers were so bothered about their produce they would do something.

Right so leavers caused the problem with their vote but the growers should sort it out? Same old theme.

GhostofFrankGrimes

Again, this has what to do with the EU exactly?

You were talking about agricultural wages being low, when they have in fact been regulated for UK workers since 1948..

You were talking about agricultural wages being low, when they have in fact been regulated for UK workers since 1948..

So we agree the wages of agricultural workers has nothing to do with the EU? So voting leave because you didn't like low pay in the argicultural sector would be pretty pointless wouldn't it?

GhostofFrankGrimes
Right so leavers caused the problem with their vote but the growers should sort it out? Same old theme.

What happened to your labour markets, demographics or economics Whats with the shift of position?
You can't say this and then ignore it when it doesn't back your stance.

Sorry to be ignorant, but what should a "normal family" do to prepare for Brexit. 2 adults, 2 kids, normal mid range house and car, one bank account...what should such people be doing?

GhostofFrankGrimes

You are ignoring the influx of migrant workers being paid less. thus losing the UK workforce.

And at this point the discussion becomes circular about which caused what.

no position shifted just your inability to understand the BBC article I highlighted.

The only way Brexit can be stopped is for the Brexiteers in the Tory party to stop it.

Theresa May knows this and is walking them closer and closer to the cliff-edge, constantly daring them to look down. They are starting to wobble so I don't think all hope is lost.

That said, I believe we probably will leave the EU, but I suspect transition periods will be hugely extended and it will be Brexit in Name Only in the end - and everyone will pretend to be pleased.

It's going to fray our nerves for a while yet though :(

Although Switzerland looks very nice on the posters, and indeed it is IF you have a good job (well above the average UK salary) are white and obey quite a lot of strict rules, or enter with a LOT of money.
Like the campaigns from all the political parties before the referendum this thread contains a lot of soundbites and not a huge amount of critical thinking, I suppose it is in AIBU though.
Spending on the NHS, Immigration, and so called Sovereignty were all fully under control of UK government and always have been.
Failing to recruit seasonal pickers could have been addressed by the government by legislation if it had wished but it suited some farmers to hire in unskilled workers from elsewhere who were not paying into the UK tax system and would generally move elsewhere at seasons end.
Brexit has not bitten yet because it hasn't actually started but industry is already feeling the effect of the uncertainty caused by a capricious government. Much of the world relies on confidence, and the government have pulled the rug out from underneath and exposed the holes. Lack of confidence will prevent serious investors putting money towards the UK. Why would they if they can get equal or better return on investment in other countries that don't have a government that is 'messing about'?

I have concerns about the E.U. Its economic policy is right wing and ideological. I remember feeling that way when they forced austerity on Greece. I felt uneasy when they ignored the police violence during the Catalonian referendum.

I also dislike some of the Remain arguments. I don't necessarily think free movement is always a good thing and I think it is easy to sit from a position of privilege, worried about waiting in a longer line to show your passport and judge someone who lives in a poverty-stricken run down area with the high unemployment levels and a high number of immigrants all going for the same low-level jobs as they are. I don't think half of the country is racist. I think a lot of them were just desperate for change.

I did, however, vote to remain and would do so again because of the inevitable short to medium term consequences for the country and for so many. I think the future may not have looked so bleak if it was being negotiated by a competent government but as it stands it looks pretty grim and I worry about what will happen when the Torys can just run amok unchecked.

That's not to say that the high unemployment or poverty in our country have been caused by the E.U. obviously.. I'm just trying to see it from that position instead of seeing all leave voters as racist or stupid. I think my post was for myself really to sort out my own thoughts. Sorry!

You were talking about agricultural wages being low, when they have in fact been regulated for UK workers since 1948

The Agricultural Wages Board was abolished in England, workers are now subject to min wage, from 2013.
So what is your exact point?

I felt uneasy when they ignored the police violence during the Catalonian referendum

the EU has no power or authority to act or influence on Policing in member states, would you have it that they can? the EU did nothing when the Met kettled students a few years ago in London... should they have?
I want to remain in the EU but even i do not want the EU have these sorts of powers you wish to give them.

I think with the issue of Greece that their financial system and taxation was rather too 'lax' and unaccountable. The reports of olive groves that don't exist and similar 'schemes' which may or may not be true.
Regarding Catalunya, the EU is not a police force and it was classed as an internal political struggle so had no particular right to intervene, in the same way they would not intervene if home rule for (Wales/Scotland/Cornwall) were to bubble up. I believe free movement can have restrictions, such as being employed in the new country within 3 months or demonstrating you will pay the relevant income taxes. I would agree that change was necessary but the discussion centred on anything but the actual causes.

The argument about who will pick fruit and veg is easily solvable IMO. When i was a youth I did low paid tasks such as these which paid minimal wages, but I was thrilled to be earning. Now the jobs I did have been taken over by adults who are more sought after for their maturity. E.g. I ran my own dog walking business in my early teens. Now people use established businesses run by adults.

In mid teens I completed fruit picking for a local farm - now the vast majority of workers are adults from poorer EU countries

I also know of a number of unemployed adults who have difficulty getting accepted as pickers as they have criminal convictions.

In summary, whilst it will take a while to readjust we will likely get back to a scenario where the above groups get back into this type of work. People will need to move past their newly developed view of looking down on unskilled labour such as this (and it is newly developed because I'm nowhere near retirement age yet)

GhostofFrankGrimes
no position shifted just your inability to understand the BBC article I highlighted.

As you are back to that I will leave you to it.

I’m from NI, which has been made incredibly vulnerable, and nobody seems so give a shit or even make an attempt to understand the issues. I’ve applied for Irish passports for me and the kids so I’m as ready as I can be. I work in a sector which is full of very high performing, high earning, high contributing, international workers and it’s sad to see them leaving. Equivalent organisations abroad are actively headhunting our top researchers and academics now, and I know of five (including two British professors) who have left the UK directly because of Brexit. If I was in a position to move I’d be off in the morning.

We will be prepping (live rurally so already do this to some extent), from the end of this year if it’s looking like we are crashing out. Food, fuel and a bit of cash.
Given the way things are going, it would be stupid not to- however I realise we are in the very fortunate position to be able to afford to buy supplies ahead of when we need them.

I do think that people on a tighter budget might be wise to do a couple of things, if they possibly can manage (and bearing in mind all this stuff will get used, if Brexit goes smoothly, the food etc won’t be wasted). Having a week or two of extra supplies is a good idea for a lot of sensible reasons that are nothing to do with Brexit.

1. Add one or two extra things to your weekly food shop starting now, if you can, and it will soon build up to a good cushion of extra food. Look for things with at least a couple of years on the use by date where possible, and “ready to eat” or minimal cooking is ideal- canned beans, corned beef, canned fish, cooked rice and potatoes in pouches, chocolate, nuts...for short term emergency food, don’t worry too much about “nutrition”, you want plenty of calories/fat, with minimal preparation.

1. If you have a car, get into the habit of filling the tank up when it reaches 1/2 full rather than Empty. For my car, half a tank is about 2 weeks of normal motoring, but if I cut trips to the minimum, it would probably last a month - enough I would hope, to cushion against any short term supply blips.