To wonder how many of you are ready for hard Brexit now

[keyboardkate]

I took on the mantle to start another thread. If that is not allowed, Mods delete the thread, I am not sure of the protocol. But it certainly is an interesting discussion!

If allowed to stay as my OP, let's go!

This EU army thing keeps getting trotted out without people actually knowing anything about it (it won't happen www.cer.eu/insights/eu-army-four-reasons-it-will-not-happen) or understanding that the UK had a veto anyway.
This is the thing that is so frustrating, all these half baked, misunderstandings of how Europe actually works and its effect on the UK and then people accusing others of calling them stupid when they point out factual errors in arguments.

Its debatable how the EU may look in 20 years. It may be fairly similar to how the EU has operated since the introduction of the eurozone, or it may have a two speed Europe.

Some of the biggest problems faced by the EU ( and the rest of the world) are still down to how the fall out from the 2008 financial crash was dealt with. The bailouts of banks across the world caused massive fiscal problems for governments.

The refugee crisis is another.

However I don't see the collapse many leave posters are dreaming of, the EU is too beneficial to its members for that to happen, and that is broadly recognised in most countries.

No I don’t think the eu will simply collapse either. It will be interesting to see what the long term effects of the immigration crisis will be though.

In 20 years time it’ll be the UK banging on the door of the EU to be let back in!

What’s your view on how the eu might look in 20 years from now? Genuinely interested: not baiting you

We ll be wishing we were back in lol!

They ll be greater harmonisation, especially on taxes, mainly to avoid fraud.
EU Army still being talked about, though that depends to some degree on Trump, if he got a 2nd term..... then Europe will have to take charge of its own defence, can that inc the UK?
Euro and national currencies still side by side.
They ll be the limits on FOM

A better question would be what the UK will look like in 20 years?

oh and the EU will have far more FTA's and be quicker at getting them.

The only reference to aircraft carriers is that those being built are very expensive and will eventually have some very expensive American made fighter jets.
Now step back (careful you are on a small island) and consider.
What are you going to do with these new carrier(s).
If Britain is alone and wishing to 'threaten' anybody else, there are not many small countries or blocs that couldn't engage and retaliate with any reasonable chance of enduring success.
Thus they are largely a vanity project and as such as I said earlier abandoning a few of the fighter jets you could get a long way towards a really good health service and actually feed and clothe everyone in Britain properly. The choice is yours really. There are no countries wanting to 'invade' Britain in a military way and in any case having the army posted around the coastline so they could 'repel all boarders' would be far more efficient.
I am glad you are getting what you wanted and hope you are happy with it.

{The only reference to aircraft carriers is that those being built are very expensive and will eventually have some very expensive American made fighter jets.}
Of course it is very patriotic to get the Americans to build things we used to be able to do ourselves before....the UK government(s) refused to invest in the UK because it appears to be cheaper built overseas.

This is the thing that is so frustrating, all these half baked, misunderstandings of how Europe actually works and its effect on the UK and then people accusing others of calling them stupid when they point out factual errors in arguments. This in spades.

This in spades.

Lets not pretend that it is one sided.

Ironically we have become better informed as a nation (both leave and remain) as to what being part of the EU actually involves.

I am a remainer, I think leaving is a shit show, but I don't think everyone voting leave was ill informed or manipulated by Murdoch etc (Corbyn being a Bennite as a prime example).

Had we been properly informed BEFORE the vote the last 2 years could have been put to actually doing it. We (the Gov) are still arguing about what the question was.
Old 'Paxo' and other programmes did explain a fair bit, enough to understand that as 40 odd years had gone into tying the UK into the EU that it wouldn't happen overnight or be cheap.

Had we been properly informed BEFORE the vote I think we were, but any awkward facts were dismissed as Project Fear by leavers who preferred to deal in slogans than facts (they still do - I’m thinking of Brexit means Brexit and the people have spoken the fact that no one is able to explain what this actually means speaks volumes).

The biggest problem after two years is that we don't know what Brexit means or what form it will eventually take. It will not take the form as asked on the ballot paper, simply because there will be some remaining , whether its a customs union of sorts, adhering to EU legislation on goods, paying to be part of certain EU agencies. And then whatever is managed to be negotiated in a few weeks time, that has to pass the scrutiny of 27 other EU countries. Interesting times ahead.

Even the architects of Brexit had no idea what form it would take when they were busy promoting it - Have cake and eat it was as close as they got. Unsurpringly that’s not one of the options on the table - did anyone honestly believe it would be?

Sorry I expressed that badly. If you watched Jeremy Paxman's 3 part series (and other programmes) and then spent a while contemplating what they said you would have realised that 'Leave' would not be a cheap and quick exercise.
From civil laws through to manufacturing there is an intermingling of details which in theory all need unpicking and renegotiating to create a true 'leave'.
As you say, whatever 'plan' the UK come up with, the EU 27 have to fully agree. The UK has annoyed them by internally debating for 2 years rather than actual negotiation which is incredibly damaging to business. You only have to consider that any nervousness in business makes the stock exchanges 'wobble'.

52 percent of those who voted voted for cake and unicorns.

We were properly informed. 52% of the people who voted didn't listen. Nor did the just under 1/3 who didn't bother voting.

To be fair Lillian I can't think of any of the main protagonists for Brexit who were ever in a position to deliver on any of their promises in any way shape or form ? They said what they would prefer to happen, but from a position of opinion and not power.

And this is why I prep. I hope it will go smoothly. I didn't vote for it but we are stuck with it and I want it not to screw us all over. But if it does, I have a prepped "cushion" of food, water, light, heat, entertainment for kids etc to keep us going.

They said what they would prefer to happen, but from a position of opinion and not power. Sorry, but that’s just not true. David Cameron called the referendum in the first place to settle in-fighting within his own party which was tearing itself apart over Europe.

It still is tearing itself apart over Europe.

Lets hope the debacle ends Tory rule for a decade or more.

None of the pro-leave Tories have exactly covered themselves in glory since. They’ve been moaning about Europe for years, but none of them has a clue what to do now they’ve got what they said they wanted.

Lets hope the debacle ends Tory rule for a decade or more. If Labour has anyone in charge other than Jeremy Corbyn it would. As things are it’s a wasted opportunity.

Dump Corbyn and his incompetent mates and I will vote Labour again.

What was wrong with the last Labour manifesto that you wouldn't vote for them?