To wonder how many of you are ready for hard Brexit now

[keyboardkate]

I took on the mantle to start another thread. If that is not allowed, Mods delete the thread, I am not sure of the protocol. But it certainly is an interesting discussion!

If allowed to stay as my OP, let's go!

But being ill informed isn't the same as saying people are thick is it?

Making the assumption that most of those who voted differently are ill informed is more or less just a nicer way of putting it.

I brought it up as you tried to say the "thick/uneducated" meme was a strawman by leavers, when in fact there has been posts on this thread alone, we all have selective biases when read things so we see what we want to see etc, but it is definitely not a strawman argument.

Stating points that are incorrect when reliable information is easily available which demonstrate its incorrectness is ill informed.

And again, this totally ignores the likes of Ben/Corbyn who have been staunch anti-eu their whole political career.

In answer to the op, yes. That's why I prep.

"Making the assumption that most of those who voted differently are ill informed is more or less just a nicer way of putting it. "

But I didn't say that most of those who voted differently were ill informed did I?

I've still read this trotted out more than I've heard it actually accused at people.

The reason it gets brought up most of the time is to misrepresent the position of a poster because is easier to defeat and dismiss than an opponent's real argument.

The sine qua non of a strawman.

54321

I see your expertise stretches to aircraft carriers as well now.

Us leavers are blessed to have such as you telling us how things are and how things work. I only wish we could have met me before my leave vote so you could have educated me towards a remain vote

Alas, twasnt to be

I don’t think Ben and Corbyn are so very different to JRM and Boris - they represent extremes of their own parties and are trying to push through their own agenda by capitalising on the ignorance of those they want to get on side.

54321go are you talking about the American Navy , they do seem quite clumsy with their boats. I am sure the UK Navy will just be made to make do with out of date ones or share with the French

54321

A question if I may - do you think aircraft carriers are most at threat from a sub-surface or air threat? Or is cyber an issue?

Just curious - I know you know about such things

I certainly think Brexit is a monumental act of stupidity and self harm. People who think it's a good idea, I don't understand why they do, none of them have managed to produce any arguments in its favour that actually stand up to even basic scrutiny.

Golondrina - interesting as I know several million others who heard your arguments and still voted leave.

Unless you are arrogant enough to suggest you are right and many (many) others are wrong?

You had your chance to argue your case and you blew it

"You had your chance to argue your case and you blew it"

Oh come now, it was very close, and one side promised the earth, rational arguments don't work when you tell everyone that the land of milk and honey is just over the horizon.

Well obviously I think the arguments against Brexit are right, otherwise i'd be all for Leave, wouldn't I? That's not arrogant. Christians believe God exists, I don't think they are arrogant for believing that. I don't agree but it's not arrogant to hold a belief or think someone else's position is based on misinformation.

Golondrina

You are right that one side peddled disinformation - I think it was the ifs that promised/ threatened an instant recession immediately on the back of a leave vote

"threatened an instant recession immediately on the back of a leave vote"

Which was predicted on the basis that Cameron declared art 50 immediately, and didn't take into account the BOE action.

Once these circumstances weren't met, it makes it much harder to judge the quality of their predictions.

AS it is we have falling inward investment, higher inlfation, lower wage growth and the lowest growing economy in the EU.

I'd say the degree of accuracy was far higher than the leave campaign.

peddled is a rather loaded word. Some of the predicted effects haven't happened yet but there are so so so so many issues that will cause problems that WERE predicted and there has been no coherent answer to any of that. A slim majority voted for something that not all of them understood (because it's hugely complicated issue for a yes/no referendum), that doesn't mean it's a good idea. It doesn't mean we can't change our minds as it turns out not to be a good idea.

So much magical thinking.

In fairness neither side covered themselves in glory during the campaign

That doesn't really matter though. Yes, the remain campaign was lacklustre. It doesn't mean the so called Project Fear won't come to pass. It's like the UK has just given 2 fingers to facts and evidence and when called on it just goes "nerr nerr nerr" and sticks their fingers in their ears.

There is a lot of focus on the problems caused by Brexit

But what about the problems caused had we stayed where we were? We would have had to take the euro at some stage plus there is the creeping state building in terms of an eu armed forces and that march towards ‘ever closer political union’

Staying in the eu would have come with its own concerns. Money is not the only yardstick for social problems.

In answer to your aircraft carrier question Heyduggee I can confidently state that the most serious and current threat is American Naval officers

Frumpety

In that you are correct. Mind you, the Royal Navy did have the wolf rock incident a few years back. Despite It being a well known feature of nav charts!

"We would have had to take the euro at some stage plus there is the creeping state building in terms of an eu armed forces and that march towards ‘ever closer political union’"

We would never have had to take the euro- we had a veto

We would never had to be part of an EU army - we had a veto

Cameron negotiated us exemption from ever closer union - enforceable under international law, not EU law.

Topcat - I’m talking about the long view here - at some stage the eu will not want or need outlier countries with vetos - one day a decision point would come - all in or all out.

My concern would be that any ‘all in’ decision would have been made for us and taken by degrees over time

I think the possibility of the EU not having countries with vetos is very low.

All the other countries value their self determination too and this would be very difficult to get put through anywhere.

Topcat - I politely disagree but concede you make some good points

What’s your view on how the eu might look in 20 years from now? Genuinely interested: not baiting you