To wonder how many of you are ready for hard Brexit now

[keyboardkate]

I took on the mantle to start another thread. If that is not allowed, Mods delete the thread, I am not sure of the protocol. But it certainly is an interesting discussion!

If allowed to stay as my OP, let's go!

Gardening your tampax remark is good illustration of why it's vital to leave.
Cameron chuckled because it came from above.. A higher place and law. And nothing could be done.

@GardenGeek - I'm not going to change your mind. You are positive about this and see it as an opportunity. I see it as a negative to be overcome.
See you on the other side.

@Gardengeek
I admire your enthusiasm and ideals even though I can see a fair number of holes in some of your points.
The Tampon tax, I don't know if it was an EU directive (I doubt it) or a pathetic distortion of something that the EU might have legislated about, which is possible but at the end of the day the UK government could overrule that either by a 'fudge' (a rebate to retailers cancelling out the extra tax) or simply not imposing the tax. For a situation like that it would require reports and complaints and 'fact finding' which could take years and there are (globally) rather more important issues. I am not belittling the effect on women but looked at as a big picture.
There is criticism for German and some other 'Hi Tec' European countries about environmental issues. I suspect you may be ill informed. Recycling has been high on the agenda in Germany for years. Camping there 25 years ago there were IIRC 'types' of recycling bins at a campsite. Steel, Aluminium, hard plastic, soft plastic, paper.
BMW cars were designed to be easily recycled many years ago with the type of plastic each part is made of stamped on the rear to make identification easier. Innovative, efficient heating and lighting systems have been around for years. In some respects the British house building industry has been sluggish in adopting the 'better' systems.
Other EU countries regularly flout 'EU' law, The UK gov in their 'wisdom' seem to insist that all laws are rigorously upheld to the detriment of the UK.

I am not sure if I am correct here but if the tampon tax was discussed and voted for in the EU parliament, it would be down to the UK MEPs to vote against or seek an exemption if they didn't like it.
I am assuming that Mr Farage is one such MEP.
Sadly it might have been him and a couple of other UK MEPs representing you wherein lies the problem.

and you are right when you say it could have been different if we did this or that. Thats true but no ones doing it.

But they won't do it after Brexit. You are avoiding the wrong truck entirely. And you can't seem to understand that. But you're taking the rest of us with you.

Why are other EU countries not angling for exit. Well I know there have been some noises, but honestly, who would want to give up the protections that the EU has given most of us?

Republic of Ireland is tiny. Good economy now but went through its own Blitz. They will not be walked upon just because UK thinks they are a minnow and are trying to stop all the Brexit orgasms. They are protected and will be supported by the EU.

But off you go, let's regroup a year out from the Transition period (why was that needed anyway, lack of planning maybe?) EU have agreed to this remember. Bet they are shaking their heads in wonderment.

There is far too much jingoism going on. And of course the immigrant issue, which was Theresa May's to solve whilst she was Foreign Sec. But did she? Like hell she did.

So there we are. UK will be isolated soon enough but that's the way it will be.

@Garden
All the politicians used cheap gimmicks and soundbites to 'sell' the Brexit vote with dragging in any excuse to 'win' their case (EG £350Million to the NHS). If the gov wanted to fund the NHS they could. Something else may need to be delayed or reworked but it was brought in as an emotional 'prop'.
The European parliament has a massively complicated job to do as it addresses similar issues to the UK government but rather than a single group of countries of the UK with broadly similar attitudes and circumstances it has to deal with the range between Germany/France/Holland with a lot of Hi Tec industrialised workforce and near peasant subsistence farmers of Greece, and get agreement of all 27/28 countries. The UK government can't even handle the whole of the UK.
Your environmentalist concerns are of course very valid but in the bigger scheme of things fighting WITH the EU rather than against the EU would be a better plan. Yes it is overblown and inefficient but any large organisations are. For any thought you may have about a subject, in the EU there are up to 26 other thoughts that may be the same or totally opposite and you need to persuade the others to change. Only when a country encourages entrepreneurs to try and solve world issues can things really progress. I saw on the BBC website a really simple but seemingly effective idea for making desert sands more fertile to grow crops. It looks brilliant and the concept is simple and if it can be rolled out will be a massive boost to food production worldwide. IIRC basically adding clay to the existing sand so it now holds water and won't blow away.
Sadly Brexit is going to cost the UK big time and as I keep saying the losses have started already.
Harking on the tampon tax, there are women in the other 27 EU countries, do you think they would have voted for a tax as you describe?

@Garden
I still feel you are avoiding the wrong truck.
The reason I say this is that you are thinking about it in terms of all the crap that has been spouted about Brexit. I think your concerns are more fundamental and you should totally forget Brexit and go a little deeper and review what UK and EU legislation says about environmental issues that you are more interested in. The 'spare cash' and high skill base of Germany, Britain, France and so on, spurred on by EU legislation or proposals to improve efficiency and reduce waste will improve the environment but it takes having a 'surplus' of money and a push to do these things to make them happen.
Even hammering water companies to stop leaks has a massive effect but UK government and fairly toothless 'Offwat' prefer the companies to make proffit rather than pay to get infrastructure improved and leaks stopped. BT and other telecoms companies are allowed to 'massage' their coverage figures so that they look good where in reality properties more than about 15 miles from a major city get crap service. They can quote '90 percent countrywide coverage' (or whatever they claim) because their definition is 'of those living in major conurbations'.
Yes your truck is on the way. Sadly it needn't have been moving at all for your major concerns, you were duped.

I honestly believe that environmental concerns will be better dealt with as part of the EU. The current shower of shite are about profit only.

It's going way off topic but cement and glass are among the most environmentally unfriendly materials out there.
You could look at a symbiotic relationship, Germans make hi tec environmentally efficient things, Greeks make babies as their industry is not developed as much. Not sure how you would sell that idea though!

Services are stretched because the government doesn't fund them. You've been duped and Brexit is not the solution, sorry. Brexit will only make all those things you worry about worse.

VW would have about 24Billion Euro 'spare' if they hadn't been fined for lying about diesel emissions. (20 Billion to the USA to which you could reasonably reply 'hypocrites' as they thunder around in cars with 6 Lite engines) The (diesel) cars are not faulty and no vehicles are actually 'environmentally friendly' (see also Glass, silicon and plastic manufacture) so they are all on a scale. Walking is good but the world moved too fast for that as a transportation model.
Maybe you could start a new thread about improving the world if we weren't pratting about with Brexit?

The thing I don't understand about the tampon tax is although there are limits set for VAT in the EU , each EU member state decides what things to exempt, so a country can choose to exempt VAT on sanitary products should they decided to.

www.vatlive.com/vat-rates/european-vat-rates/

Check out the above link Garden it describes all the VAT rates in the European union , including the products that have a reduced rate VAT and those that incur zero VAT , it is quite interesting. Have a quick look at Ireland's VAT rates and note that certain feminine hygiene products are included in the 0% VAT category.

Tbh if it's found that the Russians interfered with the campaign like they did in the USA then the result may not be steady enough.

It's looking increasingly likely that via Cambridge analytica and other channels (looking at you, Farage) that this is the case.

WRT population , the UK's population has increased by 7 million over the course of 40 years. Now how much of that increase is down to immigration and how much is down to the age old population increaser of people procreating I am not sure.

The point being that population has been increasing for many many years , even during WWII it increased, this is not a new thing or news to any Government during all those years. However there was a significant jump in the last 10 years from 61.39 to 66.57. This is probably where a lot of the issue lies. Is this because the population is living longer, is it due to an increase in birth rates, is it due to immigration ?

Now I am no statistician , not by a long shot, but I think there has to be a correlation between a reduction in public spending both nationally and at local government level, and the negative impact that would ordinarily have on services of a static population and the even more negative impact that has on an increasing population. This is not a shock to those in Government, reduce spending during a period of population increase ( increase for whatever reason) = strain on or reduction of services provided.

The most interesting thing though for me over the last few years , is where the blame has been directed , at those who have reduced the services or those using the services.

frumpety a couple of years ago the Nuffield Trust was reporting that over 40% of NHS spending is on the over 65s, and the over 65s have increased from 12% of the population to 18% since the mid 1960s, and will be 23% by 2039. It’s the growth of the ageing population that is squeezing the NHS - an 85-year-old man costs the NHS about seven times more on average than a man in his late 30s.

Buteo so yet another population related increase that hasn't suddenly appeared , an increase of 6% over nearly sixty years. What has been done to prepare for this state of affairs ? the number of hospital beds has reduced by over 50% and domiciliary care has been for the most part privatised and budgets for funding slashed.

So again who gets apportioned blame ? those who have reduced services or those who use the services ?

frumpety successive governments failing to recognise shifting demographics and invest accordingly should take the blame. Same with social care.

2.4 % of the population was aged 85 and above in 2016, they have predicted that that will grow. Although with life expectancy plateauing , who knows ?