To wonder how many of you are ready for hard Brexit now

[keyboardkate]

I took on the mantle to start another thread. If that is not allowed, Mods delete the thread, I am not sure of the protocol. But it certainly is an interesting discussion!

If allowed to stay as my OP, let's go!

It’s the rich leading the thick

Well that could equally be said of Remainers.

As I said above - look back at history and all momentous - break frees - where has a plan been set out first ? Where?

You can't plan for this. And it shouldn't be as momentous as it is because this was never agreed to by any one at all above a business agreement.
I could say its thick and stupid to be shackled to the EU and to try and force us all together, its been tried through treaties in Europe for centuries and its never worked, why did anyone think it would work now. I and many leavers are not surprised at all that the far right is flourishing, and nations are being polarized. The EU is kettle belling them into bloody corners.

Who is benefiting? The people slave sex traffickers? The terrorists? The huge Big Business that thrives off cheap labour? The wealthy people who love cheap polish cleaners, romanian nannies? Has no one noticed the ground swell of fury in Italy, Greece , Spain etc?
Driving towards Paris recently even young DD said mummy I noticed "Frexit" on all the bridges driving in.

^^ All of this is harmony, a success story the UK will be sorry to leave, ever closer union, eu barmy army...

Anyway I could say anyone who has fallen for that crap is thick and they bloody well are but I wont.

Having said all that - I am watching Tracey Ullman show and its hilarious seeing JRM being fed by nanny whilst talking about breaking free and being ind-pendant.

I agree that the EU as it stands now is a fucking disaster yes. Its atrocious.

Just seen this to a comment I made earlier - my comment was made in regards to Parliament and politicians - you know the people who have power not MN on slowing Brexit down...

Perhaps I accidentally tapped into the sense of the grandiose and self importance some posters have but I got odd responses,

"Oh come on, we don't really believe that people posting on public social media are able to slow down or sabotage brexit negotiations any more than they are able to help them along by the sheer power of positive thinking"

NO!! I dont - but people in parliament and those in power have done everything they can too slow this down and try and derail it - so - what does anyone expect!

"all momentous - break frees - where has a plan been set out first ? Where?"

Yes no one said this was going to be easy - to cut the ties that kept us in bondage. That doesn't mean we stay in bondage because it's too hard to break free, and there isn't some tried and tested plan. Like with anything it takes guts, determination and perseverance.

There was no plan when FR overthrew the royals I think we might reasonably have expected there to be some sort of plan in place after a carefully organised referendum except that Boris Johnson, one of its leading architects, treated it as a massive joke and was nothing short of astonished when people were stupid enough to vote in his favour and so quickly backed off from owning the project. No one who campaigned in favour of Brexit has subsequently been able to come up with a workable solution which is why we have Theresa May in charge - someone who never supported it in the first place. It is not remotely comaparable with the French Revolution.

So anyway, will there be Brexit next March or not?

I suppose all plans are made and infrastructure will be in place.

Well no, that is why there will be a humungous transition period I suppose. LOL

I don't know about other countries firsthand, but there is NO groundswell of anti Europeanism here in Spain, there really really isn't. They think the UK is totally BONKERS choosing Brexshit.

And this idea that we can "work out the details" when the chips fall or whatever it was someone said. What, those piffling little "details" like Northern Ireland and the Good Friday Agreement? Open Skies? Frictionless trade? Millions of Britons living in Europe who don't know if they can continue doing so? Eurotom?

It's this kind of nebulous, vague, cheery BOLLOCKS that fucking pisses remainers off. Because it's people's lives.

The entire EU thinks the UK is is need of help, they cannot understand the rush to the door.

No one else can either, apart from immigration, which could have been sorted by TM when she was Home Secretary.

Sold a pup here folks.

I posed a question earlier today on this thread or another asking if the government had come clean at the outset and said we can leave and cut all ties with the EU but the cost of everything will go up by 10 percent, would you vote to leave?
How about 15 or 20 Percent?
The EU get 'deals' on goods bought outside the EU. Why does the UK think it will get a better deal by purchasing direct when the quantities will be smaller and for many things transporting it to the UK will be more expensive as it won't be coming across Europe.
You buy a chocolate bar at the supermarket for a quid. You get a box of six for a fiver, a discount. The UK will be buying the 'one at a time' rate. The various laws and regulations have taken 40 years to put together, ALL will need looking at and new versions drafted and approved. You can't do that in a weekend. How long does it take lawyers to sort out a house sale for example? The rules say that if you are not 'in the EU club', you are out and many treaties MUST be renegotiated and a new legal basis found.
Had there been a large team of GOOD lawyers working through all the treaties starting say 10 years ago there may have been a chance , consolidating some laws and leaving the trickier ones to the point where A50 was called.
Imagine a plane crash onto a city then realising there is NO valid insurance for anyone.

*You can't plan for this.^

You can, but the time for that was before triggering Article 50.

Two years on and we are still at the point of the Tory party arguing amongst themselves whilst the test of Europe watches the clock ticking down.

54321

I cannot undersand the reality of UK leaving the EU.

Is it hubris, jingoism or what?

There will not be any Trade deals within ten years minimum IMV

Canada could not even achieve that. But then they were negotiating with the EU with all their standards. If UK do not want to observe such standards, well there you go.

So, looking at trade deals. We currently buy stuff from Europe. Come departure day anything leaving or arriving will have to go through customs. There will be delays and paperwork (or whizzy little electronic things that might work if you get the software right). The EU would rightly add in the extra cost of this paperwork, and of course extra staff to do the work. Similarly the UK would be providing the same personnel and paperwork. A bit more cost. I think the HMRC estimated £30 or so for each item of goods brought in/out.
Add in the delays caused by this extra work (cost) and things escalate quite quickly.
Trade deals. Which counties are going to want to sell at preferential rates to a (small) country that is currently demonstrating how to be a complete arse, considering there are big expanding economies elsewhere that are probably closer to them?
The UK would be cracking down on immigrants (the ones doing the rubbish horrible jobs) so now you either force those already in Britain to do the work cheaply, or you pay them more.
Although the UK is capable of exceedingly high quality work, confidence in it actually delivering in the future is dwindling away. The folks building the Galilleo hardware may be offered a position and assisted moves to an EU factory, I certainly hope so for their sakes.
Business is all about confidence and the UK government have smashed that. It is not directly measurable in Pounds but a gradual leaking away of what was good.
Years ago the BBC had a massive rationalisation drive to cut costs. I believe it was called 'black spot'. The smarter cookies jumped ship before the cuts really bit and created a myriad of small companies which then sold their services back to the BBC. Of course the increased cost of using 'outside' contractors didn't really matter as the 'rationalisation' was seen to have been done.

Garden you voted to leave the European union, it did not say anything on the ballot paper about reforming our electoral or parliamentary system, so in respect to both of those nothing will change. The only way you and I can dictate policy is to vote for a party who's policies we most relate to, in the hope that a. enough people feel the same way we do and the party wins the election and b. the party adheres to those campaign promises, neither of which is a given sadly.

You could become a member of a political party and start your campaigning for what your vision of how the UK develops at grass roots, although I think your ideas may be too left field for the Conservatives

I want to discourage as much unnecessary transport as possible well good luck with that. Instead of trading with our closest neighbours the idea is we’ll be looking for new markets which by necessity will be farther away. I can only think you are joking if you seriously think Boris et al are seeing Brexit as a way of making Britain and the world a fairer, greener place. Seriously?

The whole idea of the 'taking back control' seems to have been misconstrued by some people. The control was never going to be in the hands of the people who voted in the referendum any more than it currently is. Nothing will change as far as electoral or parliamentary process, it will stay the same, with the exception of the Henry VIII powers which provide the current government with more control than any precious government in peacetime, how comfortable you are with that possibly although not certainly, depends on your political allegiance.

precious=previous

GardenGeek

Completely agree on population and or climate change, which why we should approach these problems together.
the UK trying to change say how India uses Fossil fuels will get a big FO! but the EU with its 500m population may have some influence.
At the moment we ve China, India, the USA and the EU as the worlds largest trading blocks, who shall we join now? didnt we attempt to muscle in on the Pacific partnership? thats all gone a bit quiet....

The EU may well build a super Greenhouse and it might even be a success BUT we wont be part of it, same with the next generations of Greener Airliners, again, we wont be part of it.
As i heard around the time of the vote, whatever we build, design or sell, the EU is bigger, wealthier and can replicate without us.

Your post is about UK policies, we could change our energy consumption regardless of whether we are in the EU or not eg housing insulation standards, lowest in N.Europe.

I like GardenGeek's ideas of an ideal Brexit. If that is what Brexit would become, I'd have voted for it without a second thought but it won't.

What Brexit will be is the rich getting richer, those in the middle who can afford to get out getting out and poor getting shafted but without the small protections the EU offered them (like regeneration grants to poorer areas and minimum welfare standards)

We'll probably, in the long term, end up importing cheaper, lower quality goods from further afield. Industry and manufacturing will only survive if we become a tax haven and worker's rights are suppressed.

Meanwhile, the EU and its member states will continue their (admittedly not good enough) efforts to reduce carbon emissions and pollution.

on india I think who am I to tell them not use fossil fuels, we have done our fair share of that and they are catching up IYSWIM. It will affect them before us. UK is one of the last affected by climate change. India probably one of the 1st. Thats a difficult view balancing fairness and environment. But I think we can only be responsible for ourselves and lead by example at the end of the day

I disagree, climate change will affect us all, its not about how hot or cold it gets, its about population movement, the 1000s crossing the Med and Europes land borders will became 100s of 1000s if Africa cannot feed itself and it will not be possible to stop them either, well not quite true but that would require machine guns and fences aka as Hungary and i doubt we ve the stomach for that.
Unfortunately, the developing world does (or rather should not) have the luxury of burning fossil fuels, they ll have to use clean energy/Nuclear and we can help them imho via the EU and other international bodies, trade is a powerful tool.
We need to turn capitalist globalisation (which has failed all of us) into environmental globalisation, unfortunately brexit will make us inward and nationalistic.