To wonder how many of you are ready for hard Brexit now

[keyboardkate]

I took on the mantle to start another thread. If that is not allowed, Mods delete the thread, I am not sure of the protocol. But it certainly is an interesting discussion!

If allowed to stay as my OP, let's go!

Remain would be for EVER too. Frustration with the EU and believing our country should be run independently is a very valid reason to prefer to leave. The EU's superstate plan makes me very uneasy, especially how it was hidden for so long. We can decide to have fair immigration, fair rights, clean beaches and the rest, by maintaining our own standards. I also think Britain would still have been just as peaceful if we hadn't joined.

I think I missed something - can someone please provide me with a link that I can further verify myself confirming that the UK Govt could have opted out of FOM and implemented it's own immigration controls for EU residents in the past 5 years?

Thanks in Advance from HING

EU colleagues were always freaked out that we had so much CCTV - loss of liberty in their eyes. We don't have ID because of our accepted but not codified right to go about our business without having to prove who we are to random police stops etc. This had been normalised for our EU colleagues through the wartime generation and the Cold War generation. That's why there is a revulsion in this country to having ID cards. It may be convenient but if you are in a situation where you need to prove who you are in this country, you have your driving licence, council tax bill etc. You don't need to carry any proof of who you are with you. EU colleagues find this weird.
Maybe post Brexit we'll all need to prove who we are at any given moment. Happy now, Leave voters?

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/9352335/Tony-Blair-I-dont-regret-opening-UK-borders-to-European-immigrants.html

This any use to you if you don't believe it?

Hatels www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36449974

"Existing EU rules allow states to deport citizens from other EU countries if they have become a burden on the welfare system of the state. UK law suggests this occurs after six months of unsuccessfully looking for work, but it is not clear how many people have been removed from the UK on this basis."

The same applies to Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland.

no EU grants or injections of cash for struggling areas

Where did the EU get the money from in the first place? Taxpayers of course. Only some of it comes back, and with strings attached. This is a very inefficient and wasteful way of boosting poorer areas here. We could streamline this enormously after Brexit. There would also be greater flexibility to fund projects that the EU wouldn't have prioritised as part of its own agenda.

In general if localism is a good thing, supporting your local high street, joining in with local community initiatives etc. then it's not unreasonable to think our country should be locally led, not internationally led.

Apropos of nothing, much of the 'wealth' of Britain was based on slavery or conditions approaching it in the past. Liverpool is substantially built on the profits from sugar barons with slaves who could literally be beaten to death for not working hard enough or just to set an 'example'.
This is not unique to Britain of course but somehow the concept of not paying people enough to live on comfortably seems to stick more here than is apparent in other western countries. Reducing the difference between have and have nots is the best way forward as although the society is fairer the benefits of reduced crime and general wellbeing far outweigh the extra few Pounds in your pocket.
Other countries have appreciated this fact and although taxes may be higher, the whole community benefits. The grass verge was mown at nearly 10:00 PM the other evening. It now looks nice, is safer for driving and the guy was paid. In the UK local councils try all ways they can to wriggle out of doing things like this to 'save money' which strangely seems to be available for other 'schemes' that make local officials look generous and caring to the community.

I think I missed something - can someone please provide me with a link that I can further verify myself confirming that the UK Govt could have opted out of FOM and implemented it's own immigration controls for EU residents in the past 5 years?

I think that you have mis-interpreted something. As a member of the EU, the UK could of course not opt out of FOM or implement its own immigration controls.

What the UK could have done is to actually implement the EU controls that every other EU country uses - i.e. registration of EU citizens, the requirement to confirm employment (or sufficient funds) and the requirement to confirm housing status within 3 months. And incidentally to confirm this at any time thereafter.

See my earlier post where I explain that the UK has never done this, and has blocked even tighter employment rules but now wants to do it once the UK leaves the EU - despite never having done so whilst an EU member.

Here you go HING:

Migrant workers’ right to reside for more than three months remains subject to certain conditions, which vary depending on the citizen’s status: for EU citizens who are not workers or self-employed, the right of residence depends on their having sufficient resources not to become a burden on the host Member State’s social assistance system, and having sickness insurance. EU citizens acquire the right of permanent residence in the host Member State after a period of five years of uninterrupted legal residence.

www.europarl.europa.eu/atyourservice/en/displayFtu.html?ftuId=FTU_2.1.5.html

would also be greater flexibility to fund projects that the EU wouldn't have prioritised as part of its own agenda.

You actually expect the Tories - now peddling austerity for nearly a decade to do this, as the country become poorer post Brexit?

In general if localism is a good thing, supporting your local high street, joining in with local community initiatives etc

I bet thats lovely in the home counties but in deprived areas it would consist of eating at the greasy spoon, going the bookies and visiting the pay day lender. Community intiatives non existent - you need money and resources for those.

It's very frightening, I think. Amongst many other issues we are facing a massive drop in our tax base so god knows how we will fund our public services in the future, given that they need more money than they currently get, not less.

In answer to your question - I hope we'll be ok. We're in London, so relatively protected economically. My job should be ok. No chance of ever getting another country's passport though. So all stuck here for the forseeable. Unlike one ex friend who voted Leave and has applied for an Irish passport! I know a lot of the parents of my kids friends are very worried about their future here as lots of them are from EU countries.

I really hope we get a final vote on what's being offered. I know Leavers who are aghast at what has happened given that we were all told there was absolutely no danger of any hard Brexit. It's potentially incredibly destructive and all so unnecessary. David Cameron is keeping his head down, isn't he?

I think I missed something - can someone please provide me with a link that I can further verify myself confirming that the UK Govt could have opted out of FOM and implemented it's own immigration controls for EU residents in the past 5 years?

No it couldn’t, but it could have implemented the FOM rules (3 month rule) as posted above.

The Home Office chose not to do so.

Leave voters, I know you hate "facts" and "experts" and "warnings " but the consequences of this naivety now affects all of us. Read that evidence, and when you have stopped weeping, do something to stop this nonsense.

Grants to help struggling areas.
With coal mining and steel production deemed 'uneconomic' (failure to invest in new machinery) whole areas of the UK NE, Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire, Wales etc were made unemployed 'overnight' relatively speaking. While some investment was made, setting up call centres in Sunderland etc the loss was far greater than the gain.
These were not EU decisions but the London centric government (and poor management).
The world is a global economy and although not necessarily the UK but some other small countries are practically run by big business (USA/China/wherever) based. Being masters of our own future is limited.

Ok - thanks for the requested reading, I'll catch up on that. Currently I'm too exuberantly ecstatic about DS completing all his GCSE exams and applying himself really well. He was permanently excluded from age 6 and diagnosed with ASD age 9. Exclusions, no school, special school, no school and heaps of bs later - he not only has completed in a mainstream school but has a date for the Prom - and she asked him!!

But, I'll catch up on my required reading....thanks

Congratulations @HateIsNotGood .!

Where did the EU get the money from in the first place? Taxpayers of course. Only some of it comes back, and with strings attached. This is a very inefficient and wasteful way of boosting poorer areas here. We could streamline this enormously after Brexit. There would also be greater flexibility to fund projects that the EU wouldn't have prioritised as part of its own agenda

Even if there is a Brexit bonus.. (unlikely considering the Gov is planing rises in NI to fund the NHS properly)
Do you really think the Government will give Millions to Cornwall Council? Sounds like you did believe the Coach advert !

Evidence suggests that when the Gov has any extra cash it cuts taxes for business and wealthy individuals ie Corporation tax cuts and Inheritance threshold... these cuts come with zero strings attached and can be spent abroad or wages rises for the 'board, even left in the bank.

I know Leavers who are aghast at what has happened given that we were all told there was absolutely no danger of any hard Brexit

Who said that?
As far as i was concerned, Leave meant Leave, so if resign from your local leisure club, you lose access to the Gym, Pool, Golf course, yoga classes,, everything!
If you can cherry pick to still use the Gym and pool for free, then the paid up members will question why are they still paying... this is why there can be no other brexit other than hard, it is in the rules we helped draw up!

There would also be greater flexibility to fund projects that the EU wouldn't have prioritised as part of its own agenda Do you honestly believe that any of the poorer, struggling parts of the U.K. will be getting any money from the Tories? Do you really think JRM and his cronies will. E riding to your rescue? Why do you think these areas needed EU funding in the first place? The billionaire proponents of Brexit don’t care about public services because they can afford to pay for anything they need out of their own pockets. They have hoodwinked you into believing that everyone will be better off, but what they actually mean is they will be better off and they really don’t care what happens to you.

Will end up a soft exit.

Pay in the money, keep the SM and FOM. But be outside the EU.

Works for EEA countries, but they are far more clever than UK is.

The sad thing is that at the science and many other levels we are equal to the 'brains' of France, Germany, Holland and so on, unfortunately their politicians are usually ' better' than ours, at least in terms of raising standards of living for more of their populace.
The galling thing about the Galileo satellite project is that the 'technical' bits were completely or almost completely built by British engineers. As it is a part 'military' role leaving the EU means that the engineers could lose their jobs, but hopefully will be transferred to Europe but some of the functions of the satellites will not be available to the UK meaning that if we want that capability we have to make our own. Enter 'Blue Peter' with washing up bottles and sticky back plastic as the UK gov won't have enough spare cash to do it properly).

I don't think we will have FOM or be in the single market as that will defeat the whole point of brexit. I can see us being in customs union though

I can however confirm that as the UK contributed to Galileo, if we're denied access they have to refund us a certain amount of money spent on the system.

But the UK will still be outside Galileo, and UK companies (even if they relocate to Europe) will not be able to participate for security reasons.

This is what being a third country is all about.

Again it's highly unlikely they will refuse us access to it. As then we would not be able to share any security info with them and them with us if we were seen as a danger to security.