To wonder how many of you are ready for hard Brexit now

[keyboardkate]

I took on the mantle to start another thread. If that is not allowed, Mods delete the thread, I am not sure of the protocol. But it certainly is an interesting discussion!

If allowed to stay as my OP, let's go!

World trade relies on confidence. Look how the trade indexes bounce around when there is a 'spat' in oil producing countries or reports of grain harvest failure and a myriad of other 'reasons'.
It will take other countries a lot of convincing to do invest and set up in the UK with anything like the 'deals' that countries remaining in the EU can command. The USA and other places can set up manufacturing in Italy, Spain wherever with confidence that the regulations (which may seem a bit tedious) will on the other hand stop or restrict (Italy/Spain) defaulting. Britain will become a 'loose cannon' and business wants certainty, which it can find elsewhere.

Frequency And we have a massive say in EU policy, so even if the EU was governing us, we still had a say Not with the introduction of QMV we don't. Even if the vote had been to Remain, the staus quo just wasn't there. It has changed with QMV, PESCO, attempts at further federalisation. Even with the UK leaving and thus a hole in the budget, abd countries like the NL saying the budget has to be cut and the EU has to look at what it's doing, they are trying for an even larger budget.

From what was a loose grouping of trading states, we have moved to a nascent empire (as Barroso said) with a non elected executive (the Commission) with a rubber stamping parliament that cannot actually introduce legislation, the EEAS, and now PESCO and moves to have its own Armed Forces, with Frontex demonstrating how this would work in the Greek islands, and making themselves very unpopular in the process. Is this really what you want to happen? Do you want to be self governing, or subsumed? Think carefully, as UK law does not chime with EU law. We have Common Law, they have Napoleonic code, very different animals.

I didn't make the point I intended to make in my previous post, which is that other countries seem to be preparing for Brexit, getting organised now to try to mitigate any problems they can foresee. The British government doesn't seem to be doing anything to prepare, they're so busy fighting among themselves that nothing has been done to boost the customs capabilities at ports, training new customs officers, building waiting areas for freight lorries etc.. :(

Hayduggees,

The NHS is being funded by all taxpayers in the U.K., regardless of whether they are British born or migrants from the EU or further afield. By your logic, should I be concerned about the unemployed British person waiting in the NHS Q beside me?

With the careful, considered international relations as exhibited by the White house at the moment Europe may well need it's own army, either because the USA would refuse to come to Europe's aid or other scenarios.
Britain was paying off the 'help' from Uncle Sam for 50 years following the Second world war. It's just business. The USA puts a lot of pressure on the UK to buy USA made warplanes and weapons.
I don't think any of the EU members is totally happy with the EU as an institution but standing on the outside will definitely not get any change. Britain accepted laws from the EU and has to abide and enforce them. There is some (anecdotal as I have not researched) evidence that other EU countries accepted laws but may be a little more 'lax' about enforcing them. Britain COULD do the same but might incur a 'slap on the wrist' and told to behave.

@Heyduggeesflipflop my polish pal and her husband and family are now British citizens and pay uk taxes. He works; their kids are top of their respective classes. They access uk TV only at home and speak English well. In the hypothetical nhs queue they would speak to each other in Polish. They contribute to our country as much as I do. It's only because they were smart enough to invest in getting UK citizenship that they have no worries about being chucked out. Can't stop the risk of some twat sending them "Polish vermin" hate mail though.
I think that is far more "uncharitable" and I'm glad I'm no part of it.

Lostinsunshine

You are determined to make this an emotive issue. How many people from other states do we invite here - with no control - before the resource runs out?

Immigration is not bad. Immigrants are not bad people. They pay taxes.

But we still only have finite resource. That isn’t racism that’s simple logic

Boardrooms across Europe will have been discussing this impending fiasco. European businesses will be redoubling efforts to skew their trade with developing countries to reduce the impact of UK customers 'bowing out. As I suggested earlier, they can continue to sell to the UK, just charge a bit more for the extra hassle of the new border controls.
UK businesses with a strong European link will be reviewing the possibility of shipping out. Although Germany/France/Holland/Belgium may be a bit expensive as a new location Italy/Spain/Greece even can probably provide a good workforce. They may even get grants to help set up there as part of local regeneration.
JLR moving to Slovakia. Of course JLR is actually Indian owned (TATA) so there is no 'good old British' reason not to move elsewhere.
NHS? There are reciprocal agreements between the EU countries for payment for medical services. Some have a 'surcharge' but beyond that a MASSIVE discount on the actual cost of treatment. Unlike the USA model...........

In my area the queues in hospitals have been caused by closures of A and E and walk in units. I fail to see how the EU or immigration caused that.

Poor planning and poor funding caused it. They were closed to make way for a super hospital. The super hospital would allegedly streamline care, reduce costs and increase care quality. We've lost A and E units already. They've sold the land they were going to build the super hospital on.

The NHS is on its knees because it is not being funded properly and our doctors are fleeing overseas for better pay and better working conditions. The polish have sod all to do with the NHS failing.

We have always had control over our borders and our immigration policy be that from the EU or from Commonwealth countries. We chose not to exercise that to the extent many wanted. So, in the manner of a tantrumming toddler, instead of lobbying for change with reasonable voices, we have smashed up stuff. Mmmmm, feels great to smash stuff up. Btw, the economic crap happens when we leave. We haven't left yet.

Lostinsunshine

Why the stream of histrionics

And why, if we simply never took control of existing immigration brakes is there - as you also put it - a need to stay and encourage reform?

Make your mind up - did we simply not use the rules properly or does the system need reform? It can’t be both.

As for other posters who say their local hospital doesn’t have any immigrant issues. I’m sure that’s true - but it isn’t true for discreet areas of the country. Visit Boston hospital for example.

@Heyduggeesflipflop disagreeing with you = stream of histrionics.
Good luck with everything.

Lostinsunshine

Look my point is this: conceptually, there is nothing wrong with immigration. The problem is one of execution of that concept. Eastern European immigration has been rapid and concentrated in certain towns and regions. That is fair on no-one. It impacts culture and resource.

To admit as such is not racist.

If you wish to debate whom is responsible then fine: but you cannot get away from the fact that a key eu freedom is that of movement between member states.

I posted on the other thread but ultimately, nobody from the leave side seems prepared to address Northern Ireland when actually it's the biggest reason a hard brexit is extremely unlikely.

I on the immigration: Ireland has a higher % rate of immigration from Eastern Europe than the U.K. There has been no huge backlash, no desire to leave, and a lot of integration and Polish people marrying locals etc etc. I don't know what's different about the two experiences but I'd hazard a guess it is linked to the fact that prior to this, Ireland had no significant history of immigration so I do think that EU immigration as a concern got mixed up with other issues around commonwealth immigration.

What is distressing - and in evidence on this thread- is the narrative hasn't shifted from leave vs remained, two years on. It means neither side is able to hold the government to account- remain voters should down pretty much any plan discussed so valid criticisms are ignored, leave voters feel the need to defend the frankly woeful planning and steps taken so far even though it's increasingly apparent that by handing the DUP what they want the most likely outcome is going to piss the majority of leavers off.

Re: preparing, I think it's sensible to view this as a time of impending global economic turmoil: do what you can to secure your financial position, and be aware that next March may be a bit like a major weather event (e.g. Snow, flooding) so take the kind of precautions you would for that in a non-panicked way. But more important
I think is for people to start holding politicians to account, write to your MPs, make your views heard. From everything I've seen Ireland has taken far more concrete steps to prepare - new ports, new routes, subsidies for mushroom farmers - than the U.K. Which is astonishing to me.

People with assets think they will be alright if the economy crashes. But is some ways they have more to loose. Im waiting to see what happens before making a house purchase.

SOME aspects of EU legislation could do with reform. That by no means says that it is all wrong. The original goals were pretty admirable and on the whole it is working. Yes it needs some tweaking and any institution running for 40+ years needs to adapt to the times. The issue of immigrants from from North Africa are a specific problem and there are discussions about ways of dealing with it now. Obviously countries on the Mediterranean coast will see their arrival but on the whole they are countries with limited resources to deal with the issue as their finances are not in a good position like France and Germany.
Heydug seems obsessed with the immigrants in Boston. I would agree that there is a tipping point where a large influx of people with different view on life can cause problems especially if they are not prepared to integrate. The government, COULD have done the same as many other EU countries do and say that within 3 months you have to be employed (or show sustained income such as pensions sufficient to support your life) or leave. The fact they didn't is a reflection on the UK government, and not a restyriction by the EU or the EU telling us that FOM means we have to accept everybody.
The flipside of this FOM is that if you own a house in the UK or have access to say £100K or more, you could probably move to many other EU countries and that cash could get you a large house AND have money to keep you going while getting started. EU regional regeneration funds may even assist financially in some areas.
The UK has had such funds but some areas I have seen chose to graffitti on the sign recognising EU contribution and the locals rather that accepting a boost have crapped on it and then demand to leave the EU. The difference is attitude. Too many Britons think 'entitlement'. Other cultures may say 'thanks for the help' and take what they have been given and move forward. Some Asians have a stereotypical reputation for 'entrepreneurship', and are prepared to open a small shop or business and put in the hard graft of running it.
Opportunities are there but too often some would prefer to whinge about the small handouts from the government rather than putting effort in and achieving.

Interestingly and ironically immigration will increase after Brexit as trade deals, with India for example, will be dependant on their nationals being able to live in Dear Old Blighty. So for instance somewhere like Boston in Lincolnshire could see an influx of Indian and Chinese nationals. I'm sure the locals will welcome them with open arms

Boston like many other parts of the UK has been badly let down. If those parts of the UK think that there will now be inward investment from Westminster to replace EU funding, they are utterly naive.

It is not a slur but an observation that traditionally Indian couples like having large families. Europeans tend to have one or two children, Britain used to be 2.4 I believe (as an average of course).
The Chinese economy is improving so not sure many would really want to come to Boston.
Mind you the Indian economy is on the up as well so maybe they won't come either.
Of course immigration from India/China will not be the 'peasants' rushing to work at fruit picking, they will be well paid professionals who might need a local nanny to help with the kids, at low unregulated wages of course.

@54321go

It is not a slur but an observation that traditionally Indian couples like having large families.

Lots of Indians living around me, they mostly have one or two children. I've seen none with more than that. Of course it may depend on the area they're from - in my area they're all from Kerala, and are mostly nurses.

It's a little worrying that instead of accepting the result and all pulling together for the the good of the UK, too many people have instead worked on slowing the process down, trying to sabotage it and working agaisnt the result.
I am not sure therefore surprised at where we are now. Where else could we be.

I'm not sabotaging or slowing the process down. I'm asking Leavers to justify the decision and show me how it's going to be better. In the actual negotiations, the pesky EU is (shock horror) defending its members including ROI.
Unless I missed the memo we haven't become North Korea. Questioning is allowed. If you don't have the answers then that's on you, not me.

lostinsunshine Please tell under FOM in the single Market how we could control EU Immigration, and Don’t say the three month rule