To wonder how many of you are ready for hard Brexit, after today's Common's vote?

[flibbertyfive]

Because that's what's now happening, very soon.

PS According to the civil servants I know, it will be utter chaos - there has been literally basically no preparation for this at all. Because the bloody politicians can't make up their minds for what they want/expect to happen. So there are no contingency plans whatsoever.

Hope you're happy and looking forward to the chaos if you voted for Leave.

summerinrome Excellent post which highlights some of the reasons I too voted Leave.

Why would someone take part in a debate that ends with them being called thick and racist?

It amazes me how many telepaths Brexit created. I assume this is the case because many Remain supporters now seem able to tell Leavers why they voted for leave and then explain why they were wrong.

*And no one voting for brexit (as I'm proud to say I did) actually wanted the invasion to continue.

I'm not racist.*

Typical Brexiteer speak - uses alarmist and pejorative term for immigration, then adds "not racist" as a footnote.

No-one who truly isn't racist ever found it necessary to state the fact.

Thanks SporadicSpartacus for your considered post. (Remainer-with-every-fibre-of-my-being here, watching appalled from an EU country for the last two years)

One thing I absolutely agree with you on is that Britain's constant whining and badgering for special treatment (from a post-colonial inflated sense of our own importance IMO, which I think has driven quite a bit of the suppositions behind the Leave vote) hasn't made it a good fit.

In my industry I tend to work with many high skilled European nationals. And frankly it’s embarrassing - people half my age who speak 5 languages, super clever, motivated and driven. Most of whom by the way would have had better salary and working conditions in the “socialist paradise” that is Europe. And most of whom have now made plans to leave or have already left.

I find it incredulous that people blame immigration for low wages. Perhaps the employer offering such low wages has something to do with it, hmm? And before I get flamed, yes I am aware that companies have a duty to the bottom line. They also have a duty to their workers, without which there would be no bottom line, and the erosion of pat and conditions will only get worse after Brexit.

(I should add at this point that I don't think it's fair or constructive to dismiss (all) Leave voters as racists. Some will inevitably have been. Some will absolutely not be. Racism, xenophobia and concern about immigrations are three distinct things with a degree of overlap)

Also a lot of our terrorists were UK citizens. Not sure how the EU can do anything about that.

@FTRT

It was advisory

And it didn’t set out the terms of Brexit.

Also it’s hardly democratic when we don’t have a chance to undo it any time soon.

The referendum was a legitimate democratic vote

Indeed it was FTRT , the question you were all asked was a simple one'

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union ?

So the majority of those who voted , put a cross in the leave the European Union box.

Anything other than a complete no deal exit would mean that democracy has been diluted for those leave voters. We cannot stay in the CU or any type of arrangement and fully follow the wishes of the electorate who voted leave. They voted to LEAVE , the question was clear, the ramifications of the outcome not so.

People can say 'Oh but I wanted Norway +', or any other type of arrangement but that is not what the question asked and that is not what putting a cross in the leave box meant. It clearly stated leave, it did not mention cherry picking , cake and eat it, any other food related scenario related to not really leaving at all.

I’ll also add, democracy would be allowing Parliament to vote on the terms of Brexit. Because Parliament represents each constituency....

They voted to leave the European Union. Not every European institution, of which there are many.... most voters don’t even know what that means.

*I don’t think we will leave, ever.

May is saying things but not doing them. Delaying delaying.*

I sometimes wonder if May is actually playing a rather clever strategy: everything seems to be heading for the softest of Soft Brexits - a Brexit In Name Only.

I could live with that, as a reluctant Remainer. Ideologically, I disagree with the EU's very close relationship with big business, and I share the reservations of the late Tony Benn, ie that if Britain ever voted for socialism, it wouldn't be possible under EU rules. But I also know that EU regs give us huge protection in terms of employment rights, product safety and anti-discrimination measures, and would hate for those babies to be thrown out with the bathwater.

I’m intrigued by the I’d like the Norway solution from some people. So you want a similar deal we have now. Same costs and no seat at the table.

And before you say look at how well Normay is doing. That’s called planing rather than piss their oil money up the wall for short term gain. They kept taxes high and invested for the long term.

Anyone that thinks the situation now is going to be better in the short term is deluded.

And truckdave. Move up here lots of hgv vaccines. And pharmacy.

sporadicspartacus I really appreciate your response. I am a remainer but feel much like you do.

If we lived in perhaps a fairer world I too may have voted as you have done.

Unfortunately power is not fairly distributed and some people have much more than others be it by position of birth, money, circumstance. For this reason I also believe in the power of community; of individuals (people, groups, countries) working together to increase their strength.

I do not think for 1 second that the eurozone is perfect and when we work together as a community this often means some form of negotiation, supporting something which does not benefit us but in return we are supported and have more power as a collective in making or pressuring for the changes we wish to see.

I really hope that I am wrong but I am genuinely afraid that going it alone will only reduce our power as a country, and as a trickle down our communities and for the individuals in this country that for whatever reason do not have the power to advocate for themselves.

Surprised nobody has mentioned the governments own impact assessments.

You are going to be poorer.

In 5 years time people will be whinging about higher food prices and more expensive cars. That’s the thing that pisses me off the most. Leave voters, especially those in deprived areas (who are quite frankly fucked after Brexit) will still be moaning.

My neighbourhood is already planning a massive street party for Brexit day

Really? What part of the country is this?

I live in a big Brexit area - I haven’t heard of any parties.

Does anyone have a copy of the original ballot paper? I want to read where it states the vote was just ‘advisory’ & may not actually happen depending on xyz?
Or a YouTube clip of DC telling the nation the result of referendum would not be legally binding ( so basically not worth bothering with )

I find it incredulous that people blame immigration for low wages. Perhaps the employer offering such low wages has something to do with it, hmm?

It's not necessary to reduce EU immigration to have decent wages. We could have a higher minimum wage, strong trade unions, and an end to bloody Tory austerity that means that the poorest in society are bearing the cost of the fallout from a global financial crisis caused by wealthy bankers' greed.

Also a lot of our terrorists were UK citizens. Not sure how the EU can do anything about that.

There absolutely must be control and knowledge over when our home grown terrorists do and should be able to travel both in and out and within EU. Border control isn't just about immigration. The EU Is just too big and unwieldy.

I'm curious- what are your views on the situation in Northern Ireland? I
If you have fears about terrorists that contributed to voting leave, are you too young to remember the troubles?

I'm old enough to remember but beyond being places evacuated due to bomb scares not personally affected to the extent I think my opinion on the subject is overly valuable or well reasoned.

I have heard both sides of the argument. That it is an important component to peace but also that it is a soft target for illegal immigration. Of all the "risks" of hard brexit, this is the one I see as genuine and would be most concerned about. But it wouldn't change my vote of leave. I do entirely see why it would impact on those personally affected's voting decisions. That probably leaves me guilty of throwing NI under a bus, I think that's the problem with conglomerates get too big, the needs become too different and conflictory.

The economic is just one section of the population valuing there own lifestyle over another. It's disingenuous not to recognise the impact on EU in some sections of the population has already been devastating and they have been little able to move to mitigate the impact. Control over immigration doesn't mean no immigration, it means controlled immigration to the benefit of the population already in place, something that isn't possible with entirely free freedom of movement. It's didn't mean we shouldn't be offering asylum where appropriate either.

I think those that voted us into Europe feel the strongest because they voted us in. Many feel they were misled, all they thought they were voting for was a customs union nog a federal European. They remember another way and they do see it as better. They feel is their responsibility to sort it out.

What I don't get is how remainers dont want to accept the point of brexit is a hard brexit

No it isn't. It wasn't on the ballot paper. We were asked if we wanted to stay or remain in the EU. That was the question.

Given the close margins a compromise should have been found eg staying in the EEA.

Anyway, I don't think we will leave the CU because of NI (and Gibraltar) and we can't have no deal because you have to have legal certainty.

There will be a last minute fudge.

Brexit is a short term loss but a long term gain. How do you think countries like canada, Switzerland, new Zealand, Australia etc survive

CH works very closely with the EU. New Zealand suffered quite badly when we joined the then EEC.

As for short term loss and long term gain - well thanks very much but I live now and I want a nice life now not in three decades time. It's bad enough that my later years will be blighted by this but I am livid that my son's life prospects will be thoroughly damaged if I am wrong about a fudge and there is chaos next year and beyond. Just because Cameron was terrified of Farage.

If I was considering having kids, I'd wait until after March to get pregnant, that's for sure.

Anything other than a complete no deal exit would mean that democracy has been diluted for those leave voters. We cannot stay in the CU or any type of arrangement and fully follow the wishes of the electorate who voted leave

Well actually we can and for a very good reason. The terms of the Good Friday agreement make clear that both the UK and Ireland need to be in the EU. So the referendum should never have been called in the first place, but as a minimum we have to stay in the CU.

As for leave means leave. Well no it didn't actually. Some people may have voted on that basis but there were other models that could be followed (eg staying in the customs union) or being an associate or being in the EEA or a Switzerland type model. They were all discussed beforehand and simply relying on WTO rules was considered the least likely option at the events I attended.

Does anyone have a copy of the original ballot paper? I want to read where it states the vote was just ‘advisory‘

You need to read the legislation.

It doesn’t specifically state what happens in the event of either a Leave vote or a Remain vote. There is no force of law to bind Parliament.

Hence it’s advisory.

If you want controlled borders I think you’ll be disappointed given their is no solution to NI. A hard border would risk a return to violence. Ironic given some are citing terrorist threats as a reason to harden borders in the first place. Another Brexit paradox.

Leave means leaving EU agencies such as the EMA, ECHA and EASA because leave means leave doesn't it ?

Ah but time nowhere in the question posed to those voting did it say anything other than remain or leave. Remain meant stay a member of the European Union and all that that entails, leave meant leave the European Union and all that entails. Nowhere on the ballot paper did it mention , staying in some bits of the EU , such as agencies it is beneficial to be a member of, or a customs union or the single market, or any other EU associated organisation. It simply said leave.