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To wonder how many of you are ready for hard Brexit, after today's Common's vote?

999 replies

flibbertyfive · 12/06/2018 23:59

Because that's what's now happening, very soon.

PS According to the civil servants I know, it will be utter chaos - there has been literally basically no preparation for this at all. Because the bloody politicians can't make up their minds for what they want/expect to happen. So there are no contingency plans whatsoever.

Hope you're happy and looking forward to the chaos if you voted for Leave.

OP posts:
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Earthakitty · 14/06/2018 18:12

So many clueless Remainers on this forum.
You cannot have a continent with vastly different standards of living AND free movement of people.
It cannot and will never work.
What do you think many Eastern Europeans from much poorer countries such as Slovakia want here ?
Do you think they've come here in droves for our fantastic climate ?
No.
It's the ones from the bottom end of the job market who come. They get low paid jobs in factories etc. Some don't work at all yet are still entitled to all the benefits a UK national has.
BUT .......along with that they get TAX CREDITS because they tend to have large families.
In the UK they can pick up three or four times what they'd earn in their home country because of our hugely generous benefits system.
They can either live to a much better standard here.....or send the money home.
They are also placing a monumental and catastrophic strain on the education system, the NHS and housing.
If they come to the UK they will be housed and given money.
How many UK nationals go and live on the dole in Eastern Europe , or take crappy jobs ?
Hardly ANY I'll wager.
After Brexit EU nationals can still come and live here. They will have to get work visas that's all and PROOF they are working and contributing to the system.
What in God's name is wrong with that ?
You Remainers seriously need to wake up and see what's going on.

Heyduggeesflipflop · 14/06/2018 18:13

Lynncrow

And I will see you at the ‘best of three’ referendum after that.

Not that I’m convinced the country wouldn’t still vote leave again, despite the pretensions of threads like this one

Avocadosarethewayforward · 14/06/2018 18:13

According to The Independent, MPs have just voted to block a No Deal Brexit

To wonder how many of you are ready for hard Brexit, after today's Common's vote?
Moussemoose · 14/06/2018 18:15

Heyduggeesflipflop It was not my judgment that was the issue when you suggested I read some history. I explained that my judgment was based on Russia's concerns about the Baltic states but you haven't addressed that point.

You have also consistently failed to address the point about the instability of the leading member of NATO.

You seem to think NATO's military strength is not backed up by the economic weight of the EU. This shows a limited view of international power play and a lack of judgement on your part.

If you do want to question my judgment please make a specific point and I will reply, if I am not too 'confused'.

vdlc · 14/06/2018 18:19

Ok, I just read someone said we immigrants are making your roads less safe and I actually lolled. Seriously. Brexiters are something else. Also, just for the record: I pay for those roads too.

Heyduggeesflipflop · 14/06/2018 18:21

Oh moosemousse, and to think we were getting along so well...

keyboardkate · 14/06/2018 18:23

My bet is no Brexit or BINO. All the costs but none of the benefits of Brexit that were trotted out all along.

Anyone with half a brain could see the way it is going.

And when arch Brexiteers are hell bent on hedging their bets in France, Germany, and Ireland, well I just sigh. Again.

keyboardkate · 14/06/2018 18:26

And just to grind some BRX gears, read a different perspective, which may have a lot of truth in it too.

www.irishtimes.com/opinion/chaos-in-westminster-sees-prospect-of-hard-brexit-recede-1.3529308

Shell4429 · 14/06/2018 18:30

heyduggiesflipflop I don’t vote Tory, no. And it’s you’re in that context.

PotOfMemories · 14/06/2018 18:32

I am a remainer and I was very upset when we voted leave but I have to admit I have completely disengaged recently as I don't understand a single thing that's going on.

I've read this whole thread from top to bottom and I'm still none the wiser.

Isn't it simply the case that however many experts say X or Y, we simply don't KNOW what is going to happen after we leave, catastrophe or otherwise?

SoddingUnicorns · 14/06/2018 18:35

Isn't it simply the case that however many experts say X or Y, we simply don't KNOW what is going to happen after we leave, catastrophe or otherwise?

Absolutely. A catastrophe is most likely, given the economic instability in the U.K. already, but nobody can say definitively what is to come. Because nobody knows.

keyboardkate · 14/06/2018 18:38

FPTP system in UK does not give a voice to anyone going against the grain at all. Like the LibDems.

That is not democracy in action, more like the same crowd alternating every few years.

I have said it before, but if there was a Single Transferable Vote/PR it would reflect a lot more as to how people are thinking.

But the top two will never allow that to happen.

Democracy? My ass.

MeyYael · 14/06/2018 18:39

And just to grind some BRX gears, read a different perspective, which may have a lot of truth in it too.

I'm unfortunately not a subscriber and therefore can't read it...

But I definitely agree, different perspectives are very valuable.

Lemog · 14/06/2018 18:41

there is no such thing as a hard, or soft, Brexit, there is only leaving the EU and for me it cannot happen soon enough.

keyboardkate · 14/06/2018 18:44

@MeyYael

I will try copy and paste.

First part

he good news for Ireland from this week’s drama in the House of Commons is that thanks to Theresa May’s deal with the sensible wing of the Conservative Party the prospect of a no-deal Brexit now seems remote at best. Given the many twists and turns in the Brexit process to date, nothing can be totally ruled out but it would appear that the United Kingdom is heading in the direction of a soft Brexit.

However, even if the doomsday scenario looks to be off the table there is still huge uncertainty about the precise nature of the deal that will ultimately emerge and the Irish Government will have some difficult calls to make in the months ahead.

It is generally accepted that agreement on the Irish backstop, which was due to be finalised at the EU summit in Brussels next week, will have to be postponed because the British have still not come up with an acceptable formula to deal with a frictionless border.

“This is all going to go down to the wire in October and the Irish issue will inevitably be a pawn in the end game as the final shape of future relationship between the EU and the UK is sorted out,” said one senior Brussels figure.

He added that Ireland did not have a lot to fear from this scenario as support for this country is solid across the EU while there is little sympathy for the British position. Still, if everything is up for grabs in October the Irish side will have difficult decisions to make under pressure.

Former taoiseach Enda Kenny warned this week that the European Council meeting in October would not be a negotiating meeting. “If negotiations have not been concluded before that meeting, then the EU Council will meet to discuss among themselves without Britain. This is really crucial,” Kenny said on Monday when being presented with the European of the Year award in Dublin.

Second part. (I hope I am not taking up too much bandwith here!)

In his speech, Kenny scotched any notion that he favoured a softer approach to the negotiations than his successor Leo Varadkar. He pointed out that six months on from the Irish backstop agreement last December, very little progress had been made to flesh it out.

Spectre of Labour
“The EU continues to negotiate from a unified position, British business is afraid to speak out because of the spectre of a Labour government,” he added.

While he is right to point out that October is the deadline for the UK to agree a final legal text of the withdrawal agreement, so that it can be ratified by the European Council and Parliament as well as the House of Commons, deadlines can always be deferred if necessary.

Boris Johnson’s derogatory comment about the tail wagging the dog reflects his real view of this country
The crucial thing about May’s agreement with Tory moderates this week is that a hard Brexit no longer appears to be a live option. This is due to the persistence and clever parliamentary tactics of a relatively small group of courageous MPs who have been so vilified by a section of the British media that their lives have been threatened.

Chief among them is former attorney general Dominic Grieve, who tabled this week’s Commons motion to strengthen parliament’s role in the Brexit negotiations. After receiving assurances from May, he voted with the government but was adamant that the concerns of his group would be addressed. “I expect the government to honour its commitments . . . If it were to turn out there was a problem, we will deal with it,” he remarked when some of Tory Brexiteers insisted that May had not modified her position.

Grieve is a long-time member of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly. He has a detailed knowledge of this country and the problems that will be created if Brexit results in the restoration of a hard border.

Time-limited backstop
How the Border circle can be squared remains one of the most intractable elements of the negotiations in the months ahead. The British plan published last week for a time-limited backstop for the entire UK represents some movement in the right direction but there is a long way to go.

Varadkar gave it a tentative welcome but EU chief negotiator Michel Barnier took a decidedly more negative view expressing serious doubts about how a backstop arrangement to keep Northern Ireland in regulatory alignment with the EU could be applied to the whole of the UK. He remarked that what was feasible for a territory the size of the North might not be feasible for the UK as a whole.

The fact the Border is such an important issue for the entire EU is a tribute to the approach taken by the Government and its officials and has undoubtedly helped to push the British in the direction of a soft rather than a hard Brexit. That has infuriated Brexiteers such as Boris Johnson. His derogatory comment about the tail wagging the dog reflects his real view of this country.

This week’s Commons manoeuvring has put Johnson and his cronies on the back foot. They will undoubtedly make further efforts to drag things back their way but for the moment at least their desire for a no-deal Brexit has been thwarted.

Heyduggeesflipflop · 14/06/2018 18:46

Keyboard Kate

I didn’t realise the Lib Dem’s were still an actual real life political party...

watchingwithinterest · 14/06/2018 18:48

My bet is that Theresa May will not be able pull this together, no matter how much time, energy and thought pumped into any kind of 'deal'. I think she is a capable PM but this is simply too big and too complex for one person.

One wrong move and...

Jacob Rees Mogg will move in and take over, along with Gove and Davis etc and we will be heading for a hard brexit by the Monday morning.

A fudge will not be allowed to happen.

I sense a coop. I hope Jacob has his removal team on standby.

keyboardkate · 14/06/2018 18:48

BTW the Irish Times article is by one Stephen Collins. If you want to google that journalist.

watchingwithinterest · 14/06/2018 18:49

The EU should be very very wary of JRM in the driving seat for sure.

lostinsunshine · 14/06/2018 18:50

If Brexit voters fall for a shifty posh boy bigot like JRM they deserve all the shit the Tories dump on them.

keyboardkate · 14/06/2018 18:51

JRM is a hypocrite of the highest order. He has ensured that his capital investment vehicle will be able to operate within the EU (Ireland), if things go full on Brexit.

Square that circle for me someone please!

IMBU · 14/06/2018 18:52

Teresa May is a remainer. She never wanted to leave in the first place. She is weak and ineffectual. I hope JRM does step in. Bring it on.

watchingwithinterest · 14/06/2018 18:52

The EU are using the Irish border to as a bargaining chip in a casino, it is is utterly disgraceful fashion when you consider how many people have died and suffered over the years.

They do not care about the peace treaty, they are just looking for as many barriers as possible to stop the UK from leaving.

It won't wash with anyone, and they should hang their heads in shame.

watchingwithinterest · 14/06/2018 18:54

JRM will make an outstanding Prime Minister, he will see this through properly.

lostinsunshine · 14/06/2018 18:55

The Irish border is, in fact The UK border with the EU. Not Hadrian's Wall. FFS. Remainers including me were banging on about this prior to the referendum. If you were too seduced by bullshit to listen that is your look out. And sadly everyone else's in this country.