Divorce / family breakdown is hugely detrimental for the children

[Yogaqueen5]

This does not include obviously abusive relationships and situations where there is a very toxic environment at home and it is clearly going to be better to separate for all involved
I’m talking more of those situations where people have supposedly fallen out of love, grown apart, not getting along and the advice often given on MN is to LTB and pursue personal happiness and gains over thinking about the greater good for the family. People are advised how it can be harmful to the kids to model a loveless marriage. But is that really worse than the alternative for them? I have friends and families going through messy divorces, seeing how horrible it is, and feel they’ve just exchanged one set of problems for another. Surely that’s not good for them or their kids?
Surely it’s better to just plod along in a less than ideal relationship?

Based on two people?

When my parent divorced, they stayed living together but having separate bedrooms so they didn't have to split time with us kids but it led to a very tense and unhappy home where we all shouted and were shouted at and all stayed in our own rooms. It would have been better for them to go their separate ways instead of waiting till we had all turned 18!

Then my mum got together with another bloke when I was 14 (parents still living sort of amicably) and I kicked off and acted up and I hated him. Didn't stop my mother, she put her own happiness first and I have zero respect for her now.

But my parents got married within 6 months of meeting each other so they really didn't know if they were compatible - which they weren't!

Based on two people?

The vast majority of posts are based on personal experience. As valid as sweeping generalisations.

The single for several decades and so happy about it is something I don’t see in rl, just MN

We tend not to talk about it. It makes people’s head explode and they come out with dreadfully patronising guff like “never say never” in a cringeworthy, jocular tone

@JacquesHammer spot on.

The majority of people who are married or in relationships seem to struggle to believe that some people can be happy single. When a friend of mine started seeing a new bloke she kept saying things like "I'll ask him if he's got any single friends for you". When I told somebody I was pricing up a special holiday for just me and DS in a couple of years they said "but you might have met somebody by then." Whenever I tell anyone I don't want a relationship or more children "oh you're young, you might change your mind."

I don't talk about it IRL much because I'm fed up of nobody listening and the patronising comments.

RedPanda - and my experiences of friends whose parents were divorced was extremely negative, with all the resentments, competitiveness, bad mouthing, loss of interest in the old family and focusing on the new family, difficult relationships with step parents and siblings, things being left in the wrong house and getting into trouble at school for it, outright asking by parents which parent their child loved best and wanted to spend most time with, feeling they were being passed from pillar to post and didn't have a proper base, or alternatively not seeing enough of one parent, being told too much about what had gone wrong in the marriage, arguments over holidays and holiday care, being told they were ruining the resident parent's love life by being difficult, etc, etc. Whilst I therefore assume a shedload of parents screw their kids up on divorce, I don't assume all parents who divorce behave that badly - nor do I assume those parents would have set a good example for their kids if they had stayed together. Parents' petty resentments and personalities aside, divorce always strains finances more and creates huge logistical issues which require a couple who no longer want to be together to be far better co-ordinated than they ever were when they lived under the same roof. So it's hardly surprising that not all divorced couples manage a detriment-free divorce any more than couples staying unhappily together manage it without detriment to their children. It's more a matter of least harm than no harm at all!

roundabout the very obvious thing to me is that those who handle divorce as badly as you describe were really not going to be good parents together or apart. I don't see it as being about marital status.

Which is pretty much what I said, apurpleglow - detriment to their children was certain either way. Divorce added in financial, accommodation and logistical nightmares to already toxic relationships, but it did physically remove parents from each other (except for the slanging matches on the doorsteps and over the phone). Either way, they continued with the emotional turmoil.

Sorry, yes I see that.
I suppose what I'm getting at is that discussion about very crap parenting, regardless of relationship status, has been conflated with the impact of parental separation. Ie "Shit parenting is hugely detrimental for the children"

Eurgh, I find this statement nonsense. It's not divorce that hurts children it's how you conduct yourselves afterwards. It didn't phase me a bit when my parents got divorced because they stayed very amicable (more amicable then when married) We worried briefly that my Dad wouldn't know how to use a washing machine etc but it turns out he was more than capable of being an adult.
People who say they are staying together for the children are usually just lying anyway! If you win the euro millions most people who say this would be out like a shot. Same goes for if a beautiful, rich and caring man landed on your doorstep and fell in love with you. Get real, your not leaving, because your scared and your worried your life will actually be worse or your standard of living will change.
We all know what makes good children but we make a million excuses to do the opposite... because it suits us. For example I work too much under the guise it's for my children. It's not for them, they couldn't care less. They're rather I was happier and around more but I'm a superficial bitch that wants to shop in Marks and Spencer's and have a nice house and wear nice clothes... But I kid myself "it's all for them".
I find it so odd how people cling to marriage like it's the holy grail. Especially people that aren't even religious. Another thing that keeps people married is stigma. If everyone you new and who you felt would judge you suddenly got divorced tomorrow, let's face it, your papers would be in the post the following day.
It's not for the children, the backbone of it is your scared and you don't know if you've got it in you to face a new life.

Fenwickdream - or, as you pointed out, you don't know if a new life is affordable. Plenty of couples can just about afford to support a family if living in one house and pooling incomes, but not really afford two households and possibly further children. Was there much financial stress in your family, or were you spared that, because I think a fair bit of stress and argument post-divorce relates to finances, which can make normally reasonable people quite harassed and resentful, particularly if a divorce is somewhat one-sided, rather than a mutual parting of ways.

Of course the ideal is for two parents who love and adore each other to stay together and put their family first.
Unfortunately this is often not the case.
The fact remains that you have no idea what goes on behind closed doors.
An awful lot of married people commit adultery, far more than the 42% divorce rate. The sex industry is kept alive by married men.
Do you think that all divorced people go around telling everyone that their spouse was sleeping with prostitutes? Of course they dont.

I have a friend who to most proprietor divorced because her and her husband 'didn't want to be married any more.' The reality is he was a peadophile . I have another friend who told people she had fallen out of love with her dh. The reality- her dd caught him with one of his teenage students. I only know this through my exh.
One of my dcs friends tells people her parents ' just decided ' to split , again as I am friends with her mum I happen to know he told her to leave because he wasn't prepared to stop shagging the ow. It had gotten to the stage where people were seeing them together. Her dc believe they ' just fell out of love.'
You have no idea what goes on.
Of course divorce is painful but the alternative is often painful too.

I've no personal experience of this but a friend of mine tells me she worked out as a child that her parents weren't happy together and were only staying together for her, and even as a child she says she felt that as a massive burden of guilt because they clearly weren't happy. I think it's a mistake to think you can fool kids by pretending to be happy when they're not - we all know how astute kids can be.

I also think the whole process causes anxiety, stress and pressure which leads to people being put in fight or flight mode.
Then they react aggressively and often cannot see clearly.
If the whole process was turned around and less fight like it would be better for everyone.
divorce lawyers don't help.

Well obviously the standard of living dropped for both of them. They went from a massive house on a private estate to a flat and a terrace house. There is no doubt my Mum would still be hanging on to that marriage now if the finances were worse because she's a bit of a snob! There is no way in hell she would have rented etc. She would have just stayed and they'de still be screaming at each other and no doubt saying they were staying together for the children
She would of undoubtedly have chosen money over happiness- sadly most of us do. My Dad however is far more spontaneous, he doesn't care what people think and can live a simple life. He actually gave her most of the money, said she needed it more than him as he didn't need much. That's probably why it was all so amicable!
Everyone on here who is saying divorce killed them as a child always has a story to tell about how the parents didn't put them first afterwards. That's the problem.

Incredit to my parents I feel they both pulled out there best sides when they split. My Dad- very generous man - gave my Mum about 2/3 of assets and money which kept her sweet. My Dad got a psycho girlfriend soon after. Her behaviour would have easily ended any nostalgic friendship Mum and Dad retained but Mum laughed it all off in a "haha your Dads gone mad" lighthearted way and we all just thought we'd let him have his moment. He was a prick when he met that woman but Mum never made a fuss and encouraged us not to. He has a new girlfriend now and we're 16 years on. In front of his new girlfriend (actually 10 years) he makes out my Mums old news and they have nothing in common but if he comes down to visit us on his own he'll always go and visit my Mum. He'd stay there if he didn't think he'd get caught! They live a good debate which inevitably gets louder and louder until it's an argument haha and then they both wander off saying they can remember why they got divorced.

I'm not denying my split hurt my kids when it happened. I messed up and made mistakes. So did he. It was messy for a while and we lost our home which was hard on all of us.
But what we have built now is infinitely better for them than what could have been if we'd stayed together. I'm sure a lot of people judged me for "giving up", but they didn't see behind closed doors, and his drinking, and his secret debt, and how controlling he became, and the bitter shrewish person I was becoming because of it all.
Me and my kids have an amazing life away from all that. We've grown and flourished and supported each other and are happy.

My parents 'stayed together for the children' and, while I'm grateful, it also comes with its own problems for kids - the guilt you feel from a young age is immense. Because of that I was always the one trying to keep the peace, I became a people pleaser and extremely conflict/confrontation avoidant, which has caused problems in my adult life.

There isn't a right or wrong but they tried their best and sacrificed a lot for us, so I don't blame them at all.

My parents divorced approx 10 years later than they should have. My childhood was spent with a mum and dad who didn’t love each other, resented each other and were both having affairs. They stayed married because it was the norm and to not upset me and my siblings. I grew up thinking that it was normal for couples to never show any affection for one another, to argue all the time and for everything to be done seperately with one parent at a time - never as a family unit.

When they finally did split up and move on with new partners, they both completely changed (to their normal selves?) and I spent my teenage years and young adulthood having to get to know what they were both really like. Even now I don’t reconcile my parents now, with the parents I thought I knew.

Staying together in an unhappy marriage for all those years was the single worst thing they could have done for me and my siblings

H & I split at the end of last year.

Maybe it could've worked if we'd both put effort into saving it. I certainly loved him enough (still do, ridiculously enough). However all the effort came from me. I was the one who told him I loved him. I was the one who was affectionate & caring towards him, both physically and verbally. I bent myself backwards compromising in the hope that it could be saved. He did nothing. Still made every excuse to leave the house, still valued time with friends over time with family. Would sit in silence every evening, usually going to bed early. Minimal interaction with the DC, and everyone always walking on eggshells because he was so damn hard to please and would fly off the deep end over what felt like everything. He would either sit ignoring me, or he would make awful digs at me (always brushed off as jokes I simply wasn't fun enough to take).

So before I was terrified my DDs would find spouses like him, and DS would treat his future partner this way. Now I'm terrified that by splitting I've damaged them in other ways.

I honestly don't know what I was supposed to do.

"This is interesting, especially on "civilised" divorces:

ifstudies.org/blog/when-and-why-divorce-hurts-kids"

No chance of bias there, what with the author being the Communications Director of The Marriage Foundation

I think the bigger issue is people having kids with people they hardly know. Getting pregnant after a matter if months.

If you can't commit to marriage because it's not been long enough..why would you bring an innocent life into the world.
They try and give it a go because of the child...but eventually go their separate ways.

Then there are many (moreso women) who settle down because the bio clock is ticking and they want kids, but knew he wasn't really the one.

Not to talk about the relationships that were less than ideal to begin with and they still go ahead and get married and have kids.

A child of separated parents. Never affected me in all honesty, I loved having two sets of everything at Christmas and on birthdays. My parents were civil and I got two holidays a year as well. I know all of that is vairyy materialistic but honestly, as a kid I thought it was great. They literally did separate because they fell out of love.

I divorced xH for similar reasons. I don’t wish to raise my DC (especially DD’s) with the belief they should put up and shut up and remain miserable in a situation for the sake of saving face. It’s not the 1950s, women have options now. They don’t seem to be ‘detrimentally affected’ either .

My DP was more affected by his parents splitting at 18 than I was by them splitting when I was a small child, put it that way. His parents divorced literally as soon as he turned 18, they’d remained miserable and fought like cat and dog, both had affairs etc throughout their marriage but stayed together until their children were adults. It made him very cynical about love.

People are too quick to get married or have children (that old 'contraception failure' excuse) before they really know each other.
Absolutely - we decided to get married almost immediately.

Taking your vows means nothing these days. I agree - we married because dh wanted to work abroad and to stay together we got married, marriage is just a legal document.

And yes, they put their happiness before their children's. Ah but we waited till we were confident about each other before having kids because having kids is the ultimate commitment not marriage....and despite our flippant wedding arrangements we loved each other, we just couldn't give a shit about marriage apart from the legal rights it gives us, who cares?