To Ask Remainers Their Opinion on Italy?

[A4710Rider]

Post 1 - I don't want this to be too long in one go so Remainers get bored and don't read it.

Italy now stands at both a crossroads and a precipice and the choices made in the next few months will decide whether the next phase of closer EU Integration happens OR there is an end to the European Project. Either way, the EU's coup d'etat in the Italian elections has been a watershed moment.

Because of the increasing problems brought on by economic stagnation and the failure of the Euro to social problems created by the the arrival of hundreds of thousands of migrants over recent years the Italian population has not only become skeptical of the European Union but of politics in general and has voted to take the country in a rightward direction.

Having formed a coalition and garnering over 50% of the vote The League and the 5 Star parties have been blocked from forming a Government after the Italian president vetoed the appointment of a Eurosceptic finance minister.

Sergio Materalla, who was installed as president by a previous pro EU Italian government AND who as head of state is supposed to be politically neutral said in a televised message that "the economy ministry always constitutes an immediate message of trust or alarm for financial markets and as such he could not accept a minister who may provoke Italy's exit from the Euro.

He then, without any apparent introspection, appointed as head of government a European technocrat who not only used to be a director of the IMF but is also well know for his pro EU views.

OP, South Wales is one of the areas of the UK which received the highest level of EU funding and is predicted to be one of the worst hit by Brexit. The problems in South Wales have been caused by successive UK governments, not by the EU.

Oh and you do know housing is dirt cheap in Wales, right? Obviously that’s not much help if you have no job because your community has suffered from decades of industrial decline, but I don’t think “housing is too expensive in South Wales and it’s the EU’s fault” is really an argument that stands up to much scrutiny.

No it didn't. That isn't how immigration works. In a country with minimum wage there is no such thing as 'cheap labour'. There are people willing to do a shit job for poor pay, and people who aren't. Hence why immigrants are over represented in fruit picking, care work and cleaning. They do the jobs British citizens don't want to.

Wages have remained stagnant across many sectors and across the country. It has nothing to do with immigration and everything to do with poor fiscal management from the govt.

Post coal communities being torn apart happened because of Thatcher. Nothing to do with the EU - and a remnant from many many years ago - nothing to do with immigration.

Good luck replacing all that lovely EU funding though, South Wales. I'm sure it'll be along any moment - right after the 350 million for the NHS.

OP, South Wales is one of the areas of the UK which received the highest level of EU funding

it was still UK money. We were a net contributor, remember? That high level of EU funding was with British money.

Oh and you do know housing is dirt cheap in Wales, right? Obviously that’s not much help if you have no job because your community has suffered from decades of industrial decline, but I don’t think “housing is too expensive in South Wales and it’s the EU’s fault

Where did I say that, FFS?

Housing is expensive because of the shortage. There is a shortage because we have thousands of people who came here to live from the EU.

Good try, no cigar.

OK - we are set to agree very poor terms (for us) with the U.S. Only 199 countries to go. yay us!

it was still UK money.
It was thanks to the EU that it made it to South Wales though.
If you believe you'll get the same deal post Brexit you're even sillier than you sound.

Hey I am not the one who thinks we need to sacrifice democracy in order to save the economy.

More soundbites. There is so much more nuance to it than this.

I was asking you earlier to explain in detail what you meant by economy and democracy. Your comment about being destitute clarified that you mean literally the ability to feed and house your self when you are talking about the economy but I still don't understand what you are level of democracy you mean.

• should the Commons and Lords both be elected and the queen?
• should judges be elected?
• what about the rest of the civil service?
• should be have a vote over every piece of legislation or are regular general elections sufficient?

South Wales is not an area with high EU immigration, OP.

And the EU chose to direct money to South Wales to alleviate poverty there and raise living standards to bring it up to par with more prosperous areas. This is a stated EU policy.

The UK government (whether Labour or Tory) has never shown any inclination to invest in South Wales.

So your argument is, once again, not very convincing. It’s not about where the money comes from originally, it’s about where it goes and what it gets spent on.

The EU wants to help areas like South Wales. The UK government doesn’t give a shit.

Fact.

That isn't how immigration works. In a country with minimum wage there is no such thing as 'cheap labour'

I'll give you a local example. Close to my heart.

Cousin's plumbing business was undercut and eventually put out of business, why? Because of the prices he charged. He had a mortgage to pay, staff to pay a decent wage too and a thousand other costs.

The Bilka brothers set up their own Plumbing business. They were brilliant plumbers. They charged a pittance but had no overheads, 4 sleeping in a two bed roomed house, all staff on minimum wages, all those that were put through the books that is.....I could go on.

The EU has vastly benefited the middle class. It's been disasterous for the working class. This statement is proven by the voting patterns around the UK post Brexit.

And you think that all medication comes from Canada or the Canadians will be able to give/sell them to us. Including the immunotherapy drugs my husband's life depends on??

If you really think that you are deluded.

it was still UK money. We were a net contributor, remember? That high level of EU funding was with British money.

Do you have a link for that please?
(that the money was definitely 100% British)
Do you think - considering all economic forecasts for brexit - whatever the deal - tell us Britain will be substantially poorer, you will retain that funding?

There aren't enough houses because they don't build enough houses. Or because companies keep building deluxe 5 bedroom houses no one can afford instead of the starter homes that are needed. The govt and local council let them get away with this.
It has nothing to do with immigration.

It was thanks to the EU that it made it to South Wales though

Jesus wept, talk about being a shill.

Jesus wept, talk about being a shill.

Please explain?

If you think the EU has been disastrous for the working class, just wait and see how Brexit works out for you.

Do you genuinely believe anyone apart from people like Jacob Rees Moggis going to be richer as a result?

all those that were put through the books that is...

The argument that EU business owners were dishonest would work if (and only if) the same problem wasn't endemic across British business owners too.

The argument about EU workers accepting lower standard of living is, however, a reasonable one IME.

And you think that all medication comes from Canada or the Canadians

Yes, all medication comes from Canada and the Canadians. I thought everyone knew this.

I will provide a link for any statement I make. I said the President was probably in control of Brussels/Berlin. I can't provide a link for that as it's just opinion.

You also said

the EU superstate, a superstate that can essentially cancel results of national elections.

which sounds like a statement to me - can I have the link to the evidence that it was the EU controlling the Italian president's decision in that case?

However the immigration problems (or lack thereof) of South Wales have very little to do with Italy.
This is a thread about Italy. But having lost that argument you've turned back to Britain's problems (all self inflicted).
Between this and the other thread it's like watching a one person tennis match - you leap from argument to argument so often.

If you think the EU has been disastrous for the working class, just wait and see how Brexit works out for you

Well, there's kind of a "fuck you" attitude towards the middles classes who wouldn't listen to us. You got cheap plumbing, you got cheaper childcare, you got cheaper everything because of imported labour. So yeah, metaphorically speaking; Fuck you.

This isn't just a Welsh thing, this is a North Eastern thing, a North Western thing, it's a working class thing.

And you think that all medication comes from Canada or the Canadians

Yes, all medication comes from Canada and the Canadians. I thought everyone knew this.

[bold]So where do we get the medication from after Brexit?? Or do you only reply when you can be sarcastic? Not very smart are you?

However the immigration problems (or lack thereof)

lack of thereof?

Can you provide a link for that please? Seriously, you people just grab stuff out of thin air and think other people won't pick you up on it.

So where do we get the medication from after Brexit?? Or do you only reply when you can be sarcastic? Not very smart are you

Exactly the same place we get it no. Don't be scared by the awful, sickening propoganda.

People who voted leave didn't have a clue about what would happen afterwards, no-one did, not the MPs who campaigned for it,or the papers who wrote so any articles or the woman in the street. It's a gigantic mess. And quite frankly I think it will get much worse. As you can tell,I voted remain.

*get it now.

can I have the link to the evidence that it was the EU controlling the Italian president's decision in that case

I don't have any proof. Well done, have a biscuit,

The working class or going to have slightly less of fuck all than they did before.

The middle classes may have to queue slightly longer when their go on their bi annual holiday to Tuscany.