To Ask Remainers Their Opinion on Italy?

[A4710Rider]

Post 1 - I don't want this to be too long in one go so Remainers get bored and don't read it.

Italy now stands at both a crossroads and a precipice and the choices made in the next few months will decide whether the next phase of closer EU Integration happens OR there is an end to the European Project. Either way, the EU's coup d'etat in the Italian elections has been a watershed moment.

Because of the increasing problems brought on by economic stagnation and the failure of the Euro to social problems created by the the arrival of hundreds of thousands of migrants over recent years the Italian population has not only become skeptical of the European Union but of politics in general and has voted to take the country in a rightward direction.

Having formed a coalition and garnering over 50% of the vote The League and the 5 Star parties have been blocked from forming a Government after the Italian president vetoed the appointment of a Eurosceptic finance minister.

Sergio Materalla, who was installed as president by a previous pro EU Italian government AND who as head of state is supposed to be politically neutral said in a televised message that "the economy ministry always constitutes an immediate message of trust or alarm for financial markets and as such he could not accept a minister who may provoke Italy's exit from the Euro.

He then, without any apparent introspection, appointed as head of government a European technocrat who not only used to be a director of the IMF but is also well know for his pro EU views.

I will be satisfied when Remainers can finally admit that they value Money over democracy and in turn, freedom.

That's what I want them to admit to.

Money and material goods over democracy.

I can't find the actual document

Yeah, I didn't think you would.

I value the peace and prosperity of my country over jingoism and ideology. How’s that for you?

The reason why you would leave the Euro "quietly" is because otherwise all rational actors would move their money immediately into German banks and wait until the new Lira had been introduced and then take it back out again, basically screwing the government in the process.

So you have to do it with no real notice and super quickly. Now if you invest in Italian companies, would you want to do that if potentially your investment would be wiped out? Thus you will want more for your money (to allow for the risk), which might mean companies can't get funding or can't get as much funding, costing jobs and putting people out of work.

One thing to bear in mind - at the time of the Iraq war the bulk of the population was in favour of it. Now most think it was a massive mistake - at a certain point the checks and balances stop people rushing into poorly considered mistakes, especially ones that have serious ramifications.

The thing is, A4, you are a bit of a Brexit troll single issue poster whose main goal in life seems to be to criticise the EU on Mumsnet at every opportunity.

I’ve interacted with you before, and tried to answer questions in a sensible way, only for you to completely ignore my responses or claim that our opinions are as valid as my facts.

But anyway. The people of Italy have not voted to leave the EU or the euro, and they certainly have not voted for economic collapse. So I see it as no great failure of democracy that the democratically elected president has taken steps to prevent those things from happening.

And if, hypothetically, 52% of Italians voted for economic collapse (perhaps economic collapse given a snazzier, sexier title and sold as something that would be in the country’s best interests), I think the president would have a duty to try and save the 48% from the 52%, and the 52% from themselves.

Haha the point with italy is THEY DID NOT CAMPAIGN FOR A LEAVE OF THE EURO / EU so in fact the president was upholding democracy.

How would you feel if you voted for a new party on set of A , B, C which was fairly reasonable but then they wanted to enact something no one was asked about aka like mass deportations or making homosexaulity illegal or other none montry reason but they were elect so the people obviously want this (the party mentioned nothing like this) and you would not want your countries legitmate checks and balances to stop this from being enacted?

It would be different if party A said Vote for us we will deport all Muslims and or criminalize homosexuality and they got elected on that mandate then you would have somethnig to complain about if the President stepped in but the fact of the matter is they did not campaign for leaving the Eu/Euro zone and to put a fianceal minster into power that has said he would leave the Euro without a vote is a none democratic thing...

scenarieconomici.it/il-piano-b-per-litalia-nella-sua-interezza/

Bit more googling.

via www.ceps.eu/publications/how-exit-euro-nutshell-il-piano-savona#_ftn1 which has some analysis on it.

I await your apology.

I value the peace and prosperity of my country over jingoism and ideology

Attagirl, you're almost on the road to full and frank admission of being an out and out capitalist. I salute you.

Here’s a link to a press story on this issue www.pressreader.com/uk/i-newspaper/20180605/281784219782361.

And here’s what seems to be a link to the actual document: scenarieconomici.it/origini-significato-e-funzioni-di-un-piano-a-e-b-per-litalia-in-europa-di-paolo-savona/

O ye of little faith, OP!

Haha the point with italy is THEY DID NOT CAMPAIGN FOR A LEAVE OF THE EURO / EU so in fact the president was upholding democracy.

There wasn't a shred of evidence, real evidence that proved they were going to leave the EU or Euro.

Let's be honest, the President vetoed them IN CASE that's what would happen. He was probably ordered to do so by Brussels/Berlin.

The good news is. There will probably have to be more elections and from what I've read both the Northern League and 5 Start will be even stronger at the next polls.

I wish someone had done some checks and balances on our democratic decisions in recent years, thus I might have a more secure job while pregnant, but hey, roll on the disaster train! The more the merrier.

Right, back to ignoring threads that start with "remainers" and "democracy".

People have linked the reasons why if i could find a English source for Soavna plan (the unhelpful person has not translated his plan into English but rather stuck to only saying it in Italian is making it difficult for me to find a English document for you to read).

And I cannot be bothered to write out 22 pages of Italian into English just to prove my point.

In summary: Italy are making the same dog's breakfast that we have.

My opinion on Italy? When it kicked little Sicily into the Mediterranean Sea it was a bit mean.

IF Italy leaves the eurozone, what will they peg the Lira against I wonder?

I remember back in the day having to carry shed loads of lira to buy a cup of coffee. The currency was getting like Zimbabwe's!

Italy are making the same dog's breakfast that we have

Their country is in a shit state, aren't they allowed to want to change that?

Just popping up to say that while I'm a Brexiteer, I'm not the same A4. That's all.

I remember back in the day having to carry shed loads of lira to buy a cup of coffee

It was 2000 the pound, are you not thinking of the Turkish lira which was at one point 28,000 to the pound?

I think the situation in Italy is a cause for concern and I think it does raise questions about democracy and sovereignty.
However your opening posts aren't as pertinent or articulate on the issues as they could be so the thread is probably going to degenerate into nit-picking rather than an appraisal of the issues.
It's unfortunate because imo there should be wider discussion about what is happening in Italy and there are a number of political commentators who have written very eloquently about the causes and possible repercussions.

I think the situation in Italy is a cause for concern and I think it does raise questions about democracy and sovereignty

Finally.

However your opening posts aren't as pertinent or articulate on the issues as they could be so the thread is probably going to degenerate into nit-picking rather than an appraisal of the issues

Fair point, I'm not great with English, just do my best.

He was probably ordered to do so by Brussels/Berlin.

As you are so fond of asking for references, can I have one for this please?

On a separate note, thanks to those who have engaged in reasoned debate on this - I know very little about Italian politics or how their democracy works so I appreciate the insight.

Attagirl, you're almost on the road to full and frank admission of being an out and out capitalist. I salute you.

You don’t seem to know the definitions of any of the words you’re using. Try taking some basic courses in logic and politics.

I’m actually more of a monarchist. Quite like the idea of a philosopher king.

What I don’t like is mob rule. Always ends badly. Remember that the IQ of a mob is the IQ of it’s stupidest member divided by the number of people. Brexiteers must be in minus number judging by some of the trolls that come on to shill for them.

As you are so fond of asking for references, can I have one for this please

I don't have one, which is said "probably" and didn't declare it as a statement of fact.

The point is in Italy the head of state IS elected its all part of democracy you might have a point if our queen got involed but thr President is a elected figure and it is his job to be a check and balance to the primeminster