To Ask Remainers Their Opinion on Italy?

[A4710Rider]

Post 1 - I don't want this to be too long in one go so Remainers get bored and don't read it.

Italy now stands at both a crossroads and a precipice and the choices made in the next few months will decide whether the next phase of closer EU Integration happens OR there is an end to the European Project. Either way, the EU's coup d'etat in the Italian elections has been a watershed moment.

Because of the increasing problems brought on by economic stagnation and the failure of the Euro to social problems created by the the arrival of hundreds of thousands of migrants over recent years the Italian population has not only become skeptical of the European Union but of politics in general and has voted to take the country in a rightward direction.

Having formed a coalition and garnering over 50% of the vote The League and the 5 Star parties have been blocked from forming a Government after the Italian president vetoed the appointment of a Eurosceptic finance minister.

Sergio Materalla, who was installed as president by a previous pro EU Italian government AND who as head of state is supposed to be politically neutral said in a televised message that "the economy ministry always constitutes an immediate message of trust or alarm for financial markets and as such he could not accept a minister who may provoke Italy's exit from the Euro.

He then, without any apparent introspection, appointed as head of government a European technocrat who not only used to be a director of the IMF but is also well know for his pro EU views.

Brexiteers must be in minus number judging by some of the trolls that come on to shill for them

I'm concerned about democracy and freedom.

Seriously, the Italian story is major news and could have severe ramifications, Italy could be out of the EU before the UK.........yet I'm a shill and a troll.

The problem with the cult of Remain is that they just don't listen and at the end of the day all they care about is themselves.

MissSusanSays

Good post.

But can we avoid using the term “Brexiteers”, which they invented to sound like swashbuckling heroes?

We’re not playing f**king pirates, ffs.

I prefer having food and medicines and petrol and no rioting in the streets, and the right to work freely and obtain goods and services from Europe with no customs barrier or tariffs, and free access to the largest trading block in the world, and avoiding xenophobic, jingoistic nonsense. But yes - call me a capitalist. That's fine for me.

I am comfortable that we never lost sovereignty in the first place, we ALWAYS had a veto, no decisions were ever forced on us. I am not a short-sighted, little-englander who can't see that we are a million miles better off than we were in the 1960s, and how the short-sighted brexit vote has irrevocably damaged our economy and society even if we managed to get the bloody article 50 notice revoked.

For the ninety-millionth time, it was an advisory referendum, being used to ride roughshod over nearly half the voters (plus all the people who were prohibited from voting).

Why assume that remainers are pro themselves? In general most people who, for example, live in London will be far less hit by Brexit than people who live in the countryside who will be quite badly impacted. Or people working in the car industry. Not that it would necessarily be a picnic for any of us, depending upon the nature of leaving.

People who wanted us to remain have a diverse number of views, as do people who wanted to leave.

I would note that despite the vote for 5* etc, most Italians don't want to leave the EU or the Euro according to opinion polls.

The Italian constitution states that the President appoints the ministers that have been suggested by the PM. This isn't the first time that the President uses this prerogative and certainly won't be the last...

The public debt is high for the same reasons it was high when the national currency was the lira: corruption, bloated public sector, widespread tax evasion. The Euro (and the EU) are being, once again, used as a rather convenient scapegoat.

I think the vast majority of people would agree with attagirl. But what she said isn't capitalism. Communism (the theory not necessarily "communist" governments seen in the world recently) also includes the idea of prosperity. The difference between the two is about who owns the means of production.

In capitalism the means of production (ie farms, factories etc) are owned by individuals. In communism they are owned by the whole community. Both presuppose the fact that prosperity is good.

I'm concerned about democracy and freedom.

But at what cost. Idealists often price freedom quite highly but forget to ask everyone else if they’d like to make the sacrifice.

So, how far will you be willing to push us all for this freedom. You have to pay the piper. How many people out of work? How many lives? How many families going without?

Is there a limit?

Well done for volunteering yourself but you’ve volunteered the rest of us too.

What price freedom?

And, also, is this freedom for everyone or just the people you want to have freedom?

What shape will this freedom take? How will we recognise it?

Hint: we’ve done this all before and most people just wanted to get on with their lives peacefully and some fuckwits with an ideology buggered things up for everyone for bloody ages. It was called the English Civil War.

Freedom is one of those things which I'm pretty convinced is an illusion anyway. We are not truly free and I cannot think of a single example of truly "free" people in the whole of history. We all give up bits of our freedom in order to participate in society. If, as a group, the community decides which bits of freedom are sacrificed and which are retained then we are as close to "democracy and freedom" as we can get.

If a group are elected and then attempt to implement ideals and policies which were not in their manifesto then they are attempting to subvert democracy. I hope (and assume) there are checks and balances in this country to prevent it from happening.

Well, I'll start by saying that I do not know very much about politics in Italy, so am basing my opinion on your original post.

I am a Remainer, although accept the leave vote as that is democracy. Yes I believe we are silly to leave the EU.

We had a referendum and people chose. There are issues over it and I think certain issues were blown into larger matters.

The new government was not voted in on the basis that they wanted to leave the Euro or EU, so I can understand why the President does not want someone who may be seen, whether reports are true or not, to be trying to get Italy out by the back door.

I am not sure whether they have to be linked, but I can understand Italy wanting to leave the Euro but staying in the EU. I think that the Euro was always set to fail and it is silly for a large part of Europe to have a single currency.

Having control over its currency is necessary in case of economic hardship, but with the amount of debt trying to withdraw from the Euro may be very difficult. However, I think having a minister for finance who actually considers that as an idea is sensible - after all why would you not want a finance minister who looks at all options.

Leaving the EU is a separate matter. We had a referendum where the people voted - Italy didn't. You can't force a leave vote without consensus - either they should have campaigned on that basis or should now look at having a referendum to allow the people to vote.

The issue with leaving is financial and I do think that sometimes people do not know what is best for them, so yes I will say I will favour economy over democracy. I support democracy, but you cannot use a vote without all the facts.

I do think the EU has a lot of problems, but leaving isn't necessarily the solution. Reform is what is needed (after all we are allowed to control EU immigration by removing anyone from the EU not working for example but we just never brought it into place).

If all countries worked together to make the EU work, took back some of the control (it really doesn't need to be as all consuming) and the country dealt with matters properly then we could make it so much better than it is.

But at what cost.

Cost doesn’t have to be fiscal it is much broader and more nuanced. This isn’t about money. It is about a whole range of issues that affect the day to day lives of people in this country.

But, as usual, the zealots are perfectly prepared to make everyone suffer for a single ideal.

Popular doesn’t equal right or fair. Watching people being savages to death by wild animals used to be popular. Burning heretics used to be popular. Public hangings used to be popular. But we all know better now.

Erm I don't care for economics over democracy

Interesting soundbite, but can you expand a little?

For example: I value my ability to feed and house myself over a right to have regular referendums (for example). But I value my right to vote in regular general elections over buying a new car.

MissSusan you are the most thoughtful poster I have read on here for days!

Can I just placemark? DH is Italian, but is away for a few days, I would like him to look at the links and give me his opinion before posting about Italian politics

“What price freedom?”

I generally find that the kind of people who say you can’t put a price on freedom are the people who have plenty of lovely money.

He was probably ordered to do so by Brussels/Berlin.

Any documentation on that? Links? Papers?

LoveInTokyo

Exactly! My mum isn’t worried about Brexit because she owns her house, is retired on a massive pension and take four cruises a year. She can’t understand why the rest of the family are so worried.

I think eu has a lot of areas where it needs to improve. It's a great union in terms of keeping things relatively peaceful and stable but it has to evolve with the times. Each country is facing its own problems and of course the knee jerk reaction tends to be,imo, getting rid of the 'other' in other words isolationism.

I'm bemused by the Brexiter obsession with 'democracy'. We have an hereditary Head of State, an unrepresentative first-past-the-post system, a minority government, limited freedom of speech, oh and an unelected second chamber (which Brexiters seemed to universally love until it was used against them). Tell me; how is this Country remotely democratic?

Democracy is a bed rock of modern civil society.

If you believe that then you’re a bigger fool than I thought.

We’re already at the bread and circuses stage. People in this country know more about Love Island and football than about their own government, tax systems and rights.

But is has always been that way. Democracy is a rubbish way to govern large populations who aren’t informed or interested in the process sufficiently to vote regularly.

Where is Lord Vetrinari when you need him?

I'm concerned about democracy and freedom.

Well, you're not really, are you. You are simply trolling the Spewkip opinions and crowing about a "democracy", which you patently fail to understand.

I guess the Quitlings are starting to get worried again, as it looks like BINO is the way we're going.