To stockpile food, medicine and petrol?

[Laudanumm]

So apparently we're now at very high risk of exiting the EU in March without a trade agreement with the EU. The government wanted to keep it secret, but it's been leaked that the middle of the 3 outcomes they're discussing, so not the bad one, is the port of Dover collapsing on day 1, immediate food shortages and almost immediate petrol and medicine shortages - as in, no food in the supermarkets. It's in the Sunday Times. AIBU to start stockpiling?

user...2886 seemed appropriate for a thread about food shortages

I think quite a few Leavers are looking forward to their blue passports, even to the point where they will replace their EU ones as soon as the blue ones become available.

MimpiDreams But reading some of these posts not as bitter as as some remainers and any way you wouldn't want to as they are all old people (that's what I keep hearing) so the meat would be very tough, you would be better of eating each other, all that young rich clever meat, yum yum

they have done many different scenarios and somebody ( let’s be honest is a remainer ) has leaked the worst case scenario, I suppose it depends on which way you voted, what or whom you believe

Thing is, if you're a civil servant and your job is to impartially model different Brexit scenarios based on the facts (ie no customs sheds to process imports) and your model shows food shortages and riots, would you still be a Leaver? Of course your going to support Remain, you'd be an idiot not to.

Oh, and it's not the worse case that's been leaked.

Buteo Only a few I would imagine, People will have had many different reason to vote leave, but remainers only had one reason, to stay.

somebody ( let’s be honest is a remainer ) has leaked the worst case scenario

This being so, I'm all agog for the imminent flood of Leaver pledges to do no preparation whatsoever for the great event - stockpiling of red white and blue bunting aside, that is.

The "clever business people " you know see an opportunity to make money with less regulation in stuff like, y'know, food safety and human safety. The "stupid Remainers" you know were entitled to vote for what you see as stupid reasons. Which are up shit creek now we are leaving.
Better reasons than "getting rid of all the [insert racist slur]. I bet that twat who sent " Poles are vermin " messages to children were really clever too.

People will have had many different reason to vote leave, but remainers only had one reason, to stay

I had many reasons to vote remain.

I quite enjoy the employment rights EU law gives me. I also enjoy the grants the EU give to my area ensuring wealth is shared out and not hoarded in London/the SE. I like the single market and free trade and the employment it brings to my area (looking at you, Sunderland, you numpties). I like that my children would've had the opportunity to travel to study and work. I was under the impression that leaving the single market would have dire consequences for our financial services sector (although, admittedly, I didn't fully understand that part).

There are more reasons. And yeah, some of those things might still be available under Brexit but they were definitely available before Brexit. They were too important to me to want to trade them for a vague notion of taking back control and sovereignty and a massive european federal state that, from I what I read, appears to be a massive conspiracy theory anyway.

David Davis admits that the 'exact same benefits' promise is bullshit.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-david-davis-exact-same-benefits-promise-article-50-theresa-may-a7657426.html

KennDodd IMPARTIAL, of course, that's what i'm saying who do you believe, would they have leaked it if had been very good news? I very much doubt it. So you must be there doing the reports, if you are going to deliberately weaken the governments hand and try and scare the people why would you not leak the worst case , I thought the civil services were working for the government, why all these leaks, surely it should all be kept in house, there seams to be more leaks than a farmers field

but I could see that not all that figure would go to the NHS and I would be amassed if people voted to leave solely for that reason, it’s like people voting to remain because of the project fear trying to frighten people to vote remain, both sides as bad as each other

be as amazed as you want - but there are plenty of people who voted on the promise to the NHS (see the story from the poster above). And no, the plural of anecdote isn't data, but it was a big lie - if everyone was supposed to understand that not all of it would go to the NHS then it was badly phrased, and yes people believed it - or wanted to believe it.
It turns out that there will be less funding for the NHS post brexit so anyone who voted for any tiny percentage of that money to go to the NHS were conned and lied to.

No, Both sides are not as bad as each other. Yes the remain campaign was shit - I will not argue that they did a bad job of putting their case forward. But they did not lie. They did not overspend. They did not make promises that they knew there was no chance they could keep. They did not illegally harvest data for the internet and use that to target voters. They were not funded by foreign powers.

And as for 'project fear'... It seems it has turned into 'project reality' and then hastily moved onto 'project no where near catastrophic enough'.

Again comparing the two sides - one that was simply poorly put together, with one that actively told lies and broke the law is a disingenuous argument that has no place in proper debate and demeans the intelligence of the people who try to use it.

And lets be honest - a bus of lies from two years ago is of no bearing to where we are now. I used it as one (of many) examples of facts that have come to light since the vote. It did imply there would be money for the NHS- the next day they said no there wouldn't be. It was a fact that has changed since we voted. You asked for such facts - I supplied a, by no means comprehensive, ream of examples. Why on earth you think the bus one is the important one is beyond me (inasmuch as you keep bringing it up whilst whistling past all the much more problematic ones) - other than you can claim that you never believed it so it doesn't count. Except you are not representative of 17 million diverse brexit voters - so what you believed means the exact square root of jack shit.

There is no need to keep harking back to it as if it is remotely relevant any more.

I haven't read the full thread yet.

I think it was @Truscum that suggested a local community backup scheme, what would that look like? Do you mean like a food bank?

Frequency Yes to remain

user...2886 given that blue passports have been taken as symbolic of regaining our sovereignty, I would say that’s a significant reason for voting Leave.

I think a Remain vote was a bit more nuanced than “wanting to stay”

Icantreachthepretzels I mention the bus as it seems to be a stick the remainers like to beat people with, None of project fear as yet come to pass as said it would, Yes the remain campaign was shit going down the fear route instead of trying to explain and show the EU's plus points
What promise could the remain campaign make with out EU say so, that's why they haven't broke any of them, because they didn't make any.

IMPARTIAL, of course, that's what i'm saying who do you believe, would they have leaked it if had been very good news? I very much doubt it. So you must be there doing the reports, if you are going to deliberately weaken the governments hand and try and scare the people why would you not leak the worst case , I thought the civil services were working for the government, why all these leaks, surely it should all be kept in house, there seams to be more leaks than a farmers field

Well I'm afraid you have now crossed the line into batshit conspiracy theorist.
There would be no need to leak good news - the govt would be joyfully trumpeting it from the rooftops. The fact they are not doing this tells us that there is no good news to trumpet. But we keep getting leaked documents of govt reports that tell us bad news. Because there only is bad news - and the govt want to desperately hide that.

leaks of govt reports are as old as time. Not a brexit phenomenon. Sometimes civil servants leak reports. Usually because they think it is in the public interest to know what the govt are so desperately trying to get hide from them.

I'm afraid it comes down to this: if the experts in charge of sorting brexit - writing the reports, looking into trade/imports/ exports, finding the possible flaws and trying to work around them, examining the impact on the various domestic sectors and areas of the country - whose very livelihood is based on understanding the SM and the CM, all believe that remain is the sensible option and that leaving is wrong - is that because
a) They are bitter die hard zealots who refuse to accept the will of the people and want to sweep everyone up into their way of thinking.
or
b) Because their expert analysis and detailed understanding of the issue tells them that this is a bad idea?

Hint - if you said a) then you are batshit conspiracy theorist.

Buteo I wouldn't care what colour they are and many people I've spoken to don't care, its just a small sound bite that the remain people like to throw at leavers,
but surely your reason to vote remain was to remain, The leave voters I have spoken to had many different reasons for wanting to leave the EU

I don't understand your logic, user.

If remainers only reason to vote remain was to remain, why are the leave voters different?

Icantreachthepretzels Its not up to them to decide what to leak, they work for the government and I hope the people responsible for the leaks have been sacked, They could make a bad situation much worse as we have seen on these post, hoarding food, dangerously hoarding fuel, unfortunately I think the people will have to see with their own eyes which way Brexit pans out, but one thing I have noticed the more fear chuck at leavers the more their will intensives ( look at the original project fear)

And the answer to your question some where between A and B

I mention the bus as it seems to be a stick the remainers like to beat people with
That's because it was a lie - and you are not supposed to tell outright lies on the campaign trail in a democracy. People are right to feel aggrieved that they were lied to when it came to such an momentous decision. And right to query what affect that lie had.

Still doesn't explain why you chose to focus on that element of my post, rather than all the far more consequential things I listed that have happened since.

Other than that there is no reply to those - so you want to beat the bus drum yourself to try and turn valid points/criticisms/consequences into simply remoaners moaning.
Not good enough in a debate, I'm afraid.
The bus was egregious and there is no defence for it. But much more has happened since. They are the things to be concentrating on now.

None of project fear as yet come to pass as said it would,
BREXIT HASN'T HAPPENED YET.
However, I would point you in the direction of my previous post (the list that started with the bus but went on) as to some of the things that have come to pass as a direct result of brexit. But that list was by no means exhaustive.
I would also encourage you to pay attention to THE GOVTS OWN REPORT which says the middle option would cripple the ports within a day and lead to shortages and there is a third option that is so awful it remains hidden from the public.
I would also ask what your solution to the NI border is - and how you intend to avert a return to civil war - in a way that doesn't override TM's red lines or destroy the EU SM.

What promise could the remain campaign make with out EU say so, that's why they haven't broke any of them, because they didn't make any.

No they haven't broken any because they lost - and therefore did not have to implement their campaign.
They didn't need to make promises about the EU - though they would have been better off explaining its plus points rather than going with project fear (though some project fear was necessary - as irresponsible as calling the referendum was, calling it and then not mentioning what would happen in the event of a leave result would be criminally negligent.) All the things that need to change in Britain were a direct result of domestic policy. Immigration laws that they didn't uphold (yes we can kick out EU migrants who are not self sufficient after 6 months) and of course crippling austerity that was ideologically driven by the tories.
But in order to shift the blame from their own bad governance - they used the EU as a scapegoat for every bad thing they did, rather than admit responsibility. And then asked us if we wanted to stay in the EU.
It was remarkably short sighted on the part of DC.
But as we still have a tory govt, they are not going to turn around and admit to all the lies they told about the bad EU to deflect the blame for the evil they were doing. And so we are where we are.

We've not had Brexit yet. Maybe the £350 million a week will come after we leave. Can't wait. It's going to be so great . Just the best. Brilliant. So happy. So excited. And able passport like I used to have.
We beat Leave voters with the bus thing because you all fell for it.

user...2886

There are as many valid individual reasons for voting Remain as there were for voting Leave.

Question: if we do say oops fucked it up and decide actually we want to stay... can we? Or are we too far gone? Or can the EU hold us to our decision and say nope, you have to go?

Too far gone. We are all screwed.

Don't forget your pets. Pretty sure that even if there's only a minor hiccup, pet food deliveries won't be a priority.

Its not up to them to decide what to leak
As human beings it is up to their individual conscience what they should leak and what they shouldn't.

they work for the government
And if the govt are acting irresponsibly/ dangerously or against the interests of the people, someone has to stand up to them. The people with the information are the ones best positioned to do so. Blindly allowing the govt to do what they want/ ignore expert advice/ make dangerous decisions is to sleep walk into tyranny.
Our govt must be accountable for everything they do.
Knowing the possibility of food shortages in 9 months time, whilst there is time to stop it is in the public interest.
Allowing the govt to lead us into hunger and chaos because they are the govt and they are allowed to keep their secrets is despotic madness.

and I hope the people responsible for the leaks have been sacked,
If they are caught, they will be. That is the consequence of their decision. They have accepted that possibility, and done it anyway. That's a fundamental difference between leavers and remainers, there, though - understanding and accepting consequences. Taking responsibility.

They could make a bad situation much worse as we have seen on these post, hoarding food, dangerously hoarding fuel,
9 months in advance - not likely. The report came out yesterday - and was first seen on Saturday evening. I've just completed a big shop - there had been no run on the supermarket. People are unlikely to panic tomorrow if they didn't panic yesterday.
BUT what they might have done is open a few more people's eyes to the possibility of what no deal could mean. It might help sway some people into starting to demand that the govt stop pissing around and start showing a modicum of responsibility. It may force the govt to do better in the future.

That's a gamble worth taking. If you are prepared to lose your job over it. Thank God someone out there is brave enough to do so.

but one thing I have noticed the more fear chuck at leavers the more their will intensives
Yes. it has been noted in many different contexts that when you confront fanatics with irrefutable proof that their beliefs are wrong, they simply double down on that belief. It's not just leavers. They're in grand company: young earth creationists, flat earthers, scientologists. All the best cults react the same way.

And the answer to your question some where between A and B
Well then, if there was anyone left on the thread who was undecided as to the veracity and sense of your arguments then you will have just helped them out immeasurably. Thank you.