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To think rapists do not belong in women’s prisons

253 replies

Magpiesarehuge · 03/06/2018 10:38

I know it’s already happened but seems there are other violent male prisoners hoping to move to female prisons. I’d really like to hear what female prisoners feel about this as the article claims many feel intimidated. This just seem absolutely crazy that this is happening - is there no though or concern all for the women prisoners? I just can’t get my head around this logic.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5798945/Trans-women-convicted-men-attack-vulnerable-inmates.html

OP posts:
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5
noeffingidea · 05/06/2018 15:45

What's the problem with a little trans girl going to girl guides
Let's rephrase that, shall we?
What's the problem with teenage girls having to get changed and showered with, and sleep in the same room as, one or more teenage boys without their parent's knowledge?
Have you heard of such a thing as safeguarding?

rosesandflowers · 05/06/2018 15:50

Have you heard of such a thing as safeguarding?

Of course I'm aware that's an issue. But my understanding was they were to be allocated different shower times etc. (And naturally the trans girls would be known to the other girl guides and the adults.)

Why would the parents not know?

And they wouldn't be teenage boys; they'd be teenage girls, no?

rosesandflowers · 05/06/2018 15:53

But that clears up why people were uncomfortable - thank you. I was very confused as I didn't see what the worries would be.

noeffingidea · 05/06/2018 15:55

And they wouldn't be teenage boys; they'd be teenage girls, no?
No, they'd still be teenage boys. As I'm sure you're fully aware, it's impossible to change sex.
As for the rest of your rebuttals, no that is the state of play at present.

catinboots9 · 05/06/2018 16:04

@Letmesuckyourblood

Yes you are almost correct about Rose West. She is on general location but it is a high security wing particularly designated to house women with severe and dangerous personality disorders. She can associate with other women on the same wing.

Her Personal Officer is not responsible for her safety, but as a 'designated person' for her overall welfare.

As she is RS (Restricted Status) - the equivalent of AA cat in a men's prison, she will be escorted by a minimum of two officers any time she moves around the prison i.e for healthcare, library etc

noeffingidea · 05/06/2018 16:10

I was very confused as I didn't see what the worries would be
Really? Why's that then? Seems like basic common sense to me.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 05/06/2018 16:14

People are made vulnerable to sexual assault not by the sheer number of them, but by the concentration with which that number is targeted.

I was trying to find a statistic you couldn't confound!

It still remains true that all of them were sexually assaulted by men. Some of the men who did the assaulting were trans women!

That's a fact we won't be able to know once Self ID goes through!

rosesandflowers · 05/06/2018 16:48

I was trying to find a statistic you couldn't confound!

Why?

And it's useless anyway regarding trans people being very vulnerable.

rosesandflowers · 05/06/2018 16:50

No, they'd still be teenage boys.

They'd have penises, if that's what you mean.
A kind, conscientious and educated person would refer to them as girls.

DrawingLife · 05/06/2018 16:56

Rose

The bathroom debate is a bit of a red herring and probably the easiest to solve with better segregation of stalls etc. Trans ppl have used bathrooms of their choice for decades. This is more about the lazy way organisations simply slap "all genders" on the female toilet and think that's problem solved. It's a matter of fairness, and of making adjustments to help women feel safe.

There are other areas, like the ones I mentioned, that are much more difficult and would put women in much more intimate contact with male bodied trans ppl. Like showers in swimming pools, female dorms in youth hostels, spas etc. And female wards in hospitals etc. All of which are starting to operate on the basis of self id without assessments, without consultation with users, without referall to legitimate sex based exceptions under the EA. And women who object are immediately shouted down as anti trans, hateful, TERFs, bigots. There IS not debate. Organisations daren't touch the issue with a barge pole.

Women's feelings have to matter in this. There's that case with the trans woman in Australia complaining because she was excluded from an all female gym because she hadn't had surgery. There is absolutely no question of this person "passing", she looks no different than a man in drag. While I appreciate her situation is difficult and wish I could think of a solution, I really cannot see how she can expect women to be comfortable in intimate spaces with her. Women who are paying to be in an all female environment. Who will be called names if they complain. It's a conflict of interest and I have no idea how it can be resolved, but I do not see how women can be expected to sacrifice their sense of dignity, privacy and safety.

The problem specifically with the change of rules in Girl Guides is 1.) the way it was done - fait accompli without a discussion, against the voices of many of the group leaders and without any impact assessment of consequences for girls, no plans for safeguarding etc. 2.) The explicit rule that parents (who are trusting that their daughters are in a single sex organisation) do not even have to be informed 3.) This includes self id for both staff and children, for intimate care and for overnight stays.
The safeguarding and fairness problems are obvious. And they're not all "little".

Personally, I'm on the more compromising end of gender critical opinion. But the use of TERF to describe women who insist that there is a material difference between biological women and trans women is offensive and extremely overused in the debate. You can get called a terf for discussing rape or breatsfeeding.
Have you tried searching the hashtag "punch a terf"? Or the activists abusing lesbians for not wanting "lady dick" (what about that unbearable dysphoria, eh?)? The iconography of baseball bats and bloodied t-shirts aimed at "terfs"? Very easy to find lots of young male misogynists that I categorically do not want anywhere near female only spaces, ever.

And let's not forget trans women (in the once understood sense of post op transsexual) like ButternutSquash earlier on the thread, who have lived in peace, supported by women, for decades, and are really suffering from the toxic ideology of current transgender activism. That's where I see the "invasion" in the debate, and that's where the push-back comes from.

PosyFossilsShoes · 05/06/2018 17:03

A kind, conscientious and educated person would refer to them as girls.

It wouldn't make them girls though, would it. The comparator for Equality Act purposes would still be "boys who are not proposing gender reassignment," and they would for the same purposes be "boys who are proposing gender reassignment."

The other point is that it doesn't have to be solely about safety. Girls are not grudgingly allowed a bit of space to themselves purely because the alternative is sexual assault. It also recognises that females having space away from pressures created by mixed space affords privacy and dignity in which to explore what it means to be a girl and to become a woman. It's wider in scope than just physical safety.

Grumpybearblue · 05/06/2018 17:07

Transwomen being more vulnerable to sexual assault always comes out as some sort of trump card. But I don't know any woman who hasn't been the victim of some sort of sexual assault and most women I know have been raped. But I only know of one woman that reported. So the figures can't really be trusted. And as others said the stats confuse rape with things like a grope.

But that aside its not a contest. Both groups are vulnerable to attacks by men.

But, by allowing self id transwomen into female prisons you are allowing men (the dangerous ones) in with women (the vulnerable ones) it's the same problem backwards and doesn't resolve anything because genuine transwomen will also be housed with oppertunist, potential violent, possibly sex offending men. We need means in place to keep both groups safe and allowing any self id'ing man in with women doesn't keep women safe. We can't sacrifice females for the safety of transwomen.

Many prisons have wings for inmates that a vulnerable to attacks from the general population. This could be pedophiles, asd inmates, police, informants. Why can trans prisoners not be in with vulnerable male prisoners?

FYI - Rose West has had lesbian relationships in prison, so she can't be watched all the time.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 05/06/2018 17:07

Why? So we could compare properly rather than the continuing apples and pear comparisons. It might have helped!

If you think it's useless because half a million women are not trans then I think I shall simply stop trying to engage with you. I was engaging in good faith!

noeffingidea · 05/06/2018 17:14

roses, nope, they'd still be boys. Lets go through it, shall we?
Boys - a male child or youth
Male - of or denoting the sex that produces gametes, especially spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertlized or inseminated to produce offspring.
Of course a kind and conscientious person may choose to refer to them inaccurately as girls, that wouldn't turn them into a girl. They would still be boys.

rosesandflowers · 05/06/2018 17:30

If you think it's useless because half a million women are not trans then I think I shall simply stop trying to engage with you. I was engaging in good faith!

Well it's useless in the sense that my point was that trans women are especially vulnerable.
You can't use mass numbers to compare vulnerability, you have to use concentration.
It's not a useless stat overall, just in this sense.

Of course a kind and conscientious person may choose to refer to them inaccurately as girls, that wouldn't turn them into a girl. They would still be boys.

I noticed you said "them" instead of "trans girls". It sounds a bit more ridiculous when you say it like that, doesn't it?
While "female" has more biological associations, generally girl is used in the case of gender. Whether or not you think gender can be defined exclusively by your experience of it and those who agree with it is kind of irrelevant. Why would you refer to a young trans teen as the gender they don't want to be referred as? What do you even get out of it? A sick sense of conviction? Some kind of internal validation of what you believe?

And what could happen because of it? Is that really worth it?

We need means in place to keep both groups safe and allowing any self id'ing man in with women doesn't keep women safe. We can't sacrifice females for the safety of transwomen.
This I most definitely agree with.

Many prisons have wings for inmates that a vulnerable to attacks from the general population. This could be pedophiles, asd inmates, police, informants. Why can trans prisoners not be in with vulnerable male prisoners?
An option that could definitely be explored as to keeping them safe. There are more issues than sexual assault though and I think there would still have to be precautions in place, simply because of the intensified level of vulnerability.

The other point is that it doesn't have to be solely about safety.

See, this is what I don't get. I don't understand why trans girls can't just go in and do the activities with them. Would they even notice after a while?

My DD had to get used to switching pronouns after one of her friends came out three years ago (as she was used to referring to him as "she", it was a hard habit to kick.) Now if she sees an old picture of him it's physically jarring to her.

RabbitsAreTasty · 05/06/2018 17:51

roses can't you remember what it was like to be a girl and why female only spaces are so important to youngsters? Don't you remember how our respective socialisations change the dynamic as soon as a member of the opposite sex appears? Were you ever in single sex groups?

At the end of the day a transgirl is a boy. He wishes he weren't but he is. I can call him she if that helps him to feel better. I will call him her in mixed environments. Still he can't be in exclusively female environments because he is a boy. Politeness only goes so far.

catinboots9 · 05/06/2018 18:16

@rosesandflowers I appreciate your dedication but where are you getting all of these statistics?

Government sources? Peer reviewed studies? It would be helpful if you could site sources so we could all have a read up ourselves

MrsWooster · 05/06/2018 18:18

Rose this debate will get nowhere because in every case you are discounting the rights of women and girls. Trans people's rights must be assured but NOT at the cost of the rights to safety, dignity and privacy of women and girls. That is the easy way- define trans women as women and voila, they have a niche to fit into without any investment. Not good enough: human beings cannot change sex, and sex is the reason for women's oppression and the reason for hard won safe spaces.

CantankerousCamel · 05/06/2018 18:32

Rose

A ‘girl’ is a prepubescent human female

A ‘woman’ is a post pubescent human female.

We have no other words for those two demographics. They are based in biology, not in ‘gender’

In fact the term ‘gender’ was not coined until the 1930’s and sex classes have been around for far longer than that, along with their terms and definitions.

FloraFox · 05/06/2018 19:02

@rosesandflowers

"Studies suggest that around half of transgender people ... will experience sexual violence at some point in their lifetimes." -www.hrc.org/resources/sexual-assault-and-the-lgbt-community

This survey is a hot mess. It's an online anonymous survey prepared by a trans advocacy group. The survey itself acknowledges that teh respondents were not randomly selected and "it is not appropriate to generalise the findings of this study to all transgender people"

A few points:

  • the definition of sexual assault is very wide and was not particularised for the responses, it includes everything from unwanted touching to rape.
  • "transgender" included genderqueer, non-binary and cross-dressers at all stages of transition
  • female trans people suffered higher rates of sexual assaults than male, the rate for trans identified males was 37%, not 40%
  • 20% of respondents had been involved in prostitution or drug or other criminal activities including 12% in prostitution - the rate of sexual assaults among TIMs engaged in prostitution was not broken out which means these figures cannot be compared against rate of sexual assaults on women as women in prostitution face a much higher rate of sexual assault than women not in prostitution.

I haven't read your other studies, I expect they are also flawed.

We are asked to believe that TIMs are at more risk than women and I haven't seen any good evidence to support that. It goes against common sense because (a) most men do not want to or feel entitled to have sex with other men, regardless of their identification and (b) TIMs are bigger and stronger than women, the strength imbalance is less for an attacker is less favourable than male v female.

Even if there was good evidence, why should women be put at risk to protect men from male violence?

To think rapists do not belong in women’s prisons
summerinrome · 05/06/2018 19:06

It is very alarming and needs to be stopped.

I don't think a convicted rapist is going to give one jot about the associated 'discrimination'!

If you have a penis you go to a mens prison
If you have a Vagina you go to a women's prison

It is not rocket science. Either sex can wear what they like in prison.

rosesandflowers · 05/06/2018 19:14

*I appreciate your dedication but where are you getting all of these statistics?

Government sources? Peer reviewed studies? It would be helpful if you could site sources so we could all have a read up ourselves.*

The ones I think are most reliable (it's so hard to get studies on this topic, particularly those that make sense) are the ones from MCASA - a group dedicated to protecting girls from sexual violence - and the ones I most recently posted. They're from the Scottish LGBT+ Domestic Abuse Project.

FloraFox · 05/06/2018 19:17

rosesandflowers - can you link to the ones you think are reliable so I don't need to waste time reading ones you have posted but don't think are reliable?

noeffingidea · 05/06/2018 19:24

why would you refer to a young trans teen as the gender they don't want to be referred as
I didn't say I wouldn't. I just said it wouldn't change reality. They would still be a boy, no matter what they are called.

rosesandflowers · 05/06/2018 19:40

mcasa.org/assets/files/Sexual-Violence-and-the-Transgender-Community2.pdf - MCASA

This is a leaflet made to spread awareness. Most of their stats are from governments/departments, a couple of LGBT+ agencies. All sources are listed directly on the leaflet, and for what statistics they were used for.

www.scottishtrans.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/trans_domestic_abuse.pdf
This is a booklet on domestic abuse. Page 18 is focused on sexual abuse.
I'd read the rest as well if you have the time. Definitions/terminology, emotional abuse, physical abuse, directly transphobic abuse, quotes/anecdotes etc.

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