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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think rapists do not belong in women’s prisons

253 replies

Magpiesarehuge · 03/06/2018 10:38

I know it’s already happened but seems there are other violent male prisoners hoping to move to female prisons. I’d really like to hear what female prisoners feel about this as the article claims many feel intimidated. This just seem absolutely crazy that this is happening - is there no though or concern all for the women prisoners? I just can’t get my head around this logic.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5798945/Trans-women-convicted-men-attack-vulnerable-inmates.html

OP posts:
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PencilsInSpace · 05/06/2018 10:26

Tara Hudson.

Letmesuckyourblood · 05/06/2018 10:38

Roseandflowers Just to clarify, prisoners are not isolated even if they have committed offences such as rape/violent assault. All prisoners socialise together whatever your offence is. Murders, rapists, pedos, druggies, thief's.. they're all mixed in together. You are only segregated or in isolation if you break the rules while inside the prison.

PencilsInSpace · 05/06/2018 10:44

Jessica Winfield / Martin Ponting - only segregated from female prisoners after making 'unwanted advances'.

catinboots9 · 05/06/2018 11:03

@PencilsInSpace wow at Tara Hudson. That is shocking.

I knew about Jessica but I thought she had been kept on the healthcare wing at Bronzefield.

Thank you for providing these examples.

PosyFossilsShoes · 05/06/2018 11:29

@rosesandflowers and anybody else who wonders what actual examples might look like, here's one: R (Green) v Secretary of State for Justice

It's long, so I'll grab a couple of quick excerpts and you will get the gist:

5. ...The claimant is a man, but for the purposes of this judgment I shall refer to him in the female gender as she has changed her name by deed-poll

Green was in prison for brutally torturing and murdering his wife.

9. On 21st December 2005 the claimant (together with other family members) was convicted of the murder of Rachel Hudson in the Crown Court at Nottingham before Mr Justice Hughes (as he then was) following a 5 week trial. The claimant was sentenced to Life Imprisonment with a minimum term of 14 years less time served on remand before sentence. There were concurrent sentences of 4 and 5 years for doing acts tending to pervert the course of justice. The entire family subjected Mrs Hudson to repeated beatings and violence.

9. It is clear the claimant, at least in the past, was capable of serious dishonesty by telling lies.

10. The claimant asserts that she is desirous of transferring her gender from male to female. It is not clear when this profound change took place. Certain it is the claimant has male genitalia and physical appearance. I am told she is now bald.

19. It is unclear whether the claimant has a diagnosis of dysphoria. The evidence on behalf of the Governor provided by Mr Peter Jobling (the segregation unit manager) reveals an unclear (certainly uncorroborated) view as to the precise medical position of the claimant. As of April 2011 a consultant psychiatrist at Charring Cross Hospital in London (Gender Identity Clinic) regarded the claimant as "a conundrum" who appeared to be saying different things to different people. He indicated her description of transsexualism to be of recent origin. Regardless of that diagnostic conundrum there is no doubt the Governor has treated the claimant as a transgender prisoner. She stated she was transgender upon arrival and has been a vocal member of the prison's group of transgender prisoners. The claimant enjoys an enhanced IEP status within the prison.

Green had made repeated complaints which are detailed in the judgment, mostly about lack of access to wigs, false breasts and a prosthetic vagina, and also wanted tights and for some reason sanitary towels.

The judge upheld the Governor's response which was that wigs provide an obvious escape risk, prosthetics a mechanism for contraband, tights a self-harm risk, and that the Claimant was already allowed to dress in women's clothes and wear make up on the wing, but chose not to do so (para 25(7))

Interestingly, the judgment also touched on the application of the Equality Act:

66. The claimant asserts the comparator should be a female prisoner; whereas the governor contends it should be a male prisoner. There can be no doubt the claimant has a protected characteristic – gender reassignment. The claimant is, however, male. The only possible comparator is to a male prisoner who is not undergoing gender reassignment...
68. Frankly, it is almost beyond argument that the only comparator is a male Category B prisoner at HMP Frankland. I am influenced by the judgment of the Court of Appeal in Croft v Royal Mail Group PLC [2003] EWCA (Civ) 1045. I find it impossible to see how a female prisoner can be regarded as the appropriate comparator. The claimant is a man seeking to become a woman – but he is still of the male gender and a male prisoner. He is in a male prison and until there is a Gender Recognition Certificate, he remains male. A woman prisoner cannot conceivably be the comparator as the woman prisoner has (either by birth or election) achieved what the claimant wishes. Male to female transsexuals are not automatically entitled to the same treatment as women – until they become women.

Self ID would change that, because on a self-ID regime Green would have been able to acquire the GRC simply on application. It would be a terrible idea for someone who is a proven liar, a serious physical threat to women, who is not diagnosed with GID, and (in my view from reading the judgment) a fetishist, to be accommodated in their desire for a fake vag and relocation to the women's estate simply on their own election.

rosesandflowers · 05/06/2018 11:46

So the basis for letting transwomen in female prisons is what? They are vulnerable to attacks and sexual assault.

Well yeah, for one thing. That's a pretty big fucking reason, if you'll excuse my language. They're extremely vulnerable to rape and sexual assault. For trans people it's horrific; sexual assault records are off the charts. It's not something to minimise.

But that's not the only problem. I've raised more in my earlier posts. Let's face it; you can't design a system not made to accommodate a group of people and then expect it to work for them - or for others.

It's water off a duck's back for many of us now. Everything's transphobic. Ducks are probably transphobic.

Ducks? Hmm
A bad joke?
I think some of the posts on this forum are pretty damn transphobic, and I think you know it too. We can recognize the impact this is having and will have on women without contributing to the rampant transphobia in our society.

By 'cis inmates' do you mean actual female prisoners?

I think you know what I mean. I mean prisoners who aren't trans or anywhere else unconventional on the gender spectrum.

It's absolutely fine for women to simply say we want our sex-based rights upheld, even if we don't have the solution. It's the job of the prison service and the government to work out how to uphold women's rights while also upholding the rights of trans prisoners.

Of course you can say "I'm uncomfortable with this." When you say, "just chuck people with dicks in one place and those without in the other" (or words to that effect) you have to be open to criticism of a very flawed policy.

rosesandflowers · 05/06/2018 11:48

Just to clarify, prisoners are not isolated even if they have committed offences such as rape/violent assault. All prisoners socialise together whatever your offence is. Murders, rapists, pedos, druggies, thief's.. they're all mixed in together. You are only segregated or in isolation if you break the rules while in

Jesus, really? Shock

You'd think there would be more in place to protect prisoners.

Letmesuckyourblood · 05/06/2018 12:05

Rosesandflowers

Yeah you would think but there's isn't too much need tbh. Must of the time prisons run smooth and people just get on with things. Must of the time you don't know what people's offences are unless it's been a big cases and other prisoners recognise who you are etc.

There are high priority prisoners who still socialise with other inmates and eat in same cafeteria etc but they are guarded 24/7 by their own personal officer to make sure no harm comes to them or them to other inmates.

FloraFox · 05/06/2018 12:29

They're extremely vulnerable to rape and sexual assault. For trans people it's horrific; sexual assault records are off the charts. It's not something to minimise.

What's your evidence for this?

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 05/06/2018 12:54

Rosesandflowers, I imagine feminine looking young men are vulnerable to sexual assault in prison. Should they be put in the female estate too? Ditto loos. Gay boys will be safer in the ladies We're back to men/nonmen again.

As for transphobic posts, please report any you notice. Saying that human beings cannot change sex or that males - including TIM - are responsible for nearly all sex and violent crime are observations of fact rather than transphobic.

rosesandflowers · 05/06/2018 12:59

What's the evidence for this?

"Studies suggest that around half of transgender people ... will experience sexual violence at some point in their lifetimes." -www.hrc.org/resources/sexual-assault-and-the-lgbt-community

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_58e24c14e4b0c777f788d24f/amp - This article states that it's 64% (this is in America, however.)

"21% of TGQN (transgender, genderqueer, nonconforming) college students have been sexually assaulted, compared to 18% of non-TGQN females, and 4% of non-TGQN males." In college trans people are almost 3 times more likely to be assaulted than cis women and more than five times likely than cis men: www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence

Also, while I was looking I came across this. Haven't actually read it yet myself but it's a trans woman in prison in California discussing her experience: vawnet.org/material/statement-transgender-woman-prisoner-california

I read a great article from somewhere specifically about sexual violence in the trans community. I'll keep looking for it. I really need to start bookmarking these articles one of these days.

PosyFossilsShoes · 05/06/2018 13:05

@catinboots9 and @pencilsinspace

I think there are quite a few: Sophie Eastwood and Alex Stewart for a start, who had to be moved to different prisons after forming a relationship with each other.

Sophie Eastwood also reportedly intimidated a female custody officer.

rosesandflowers · 05/06/2018 13:08

*Yeah you would think but there's isn't too much need tbh. Must of the time prisons run smooth and people just get on with things. Must of the time you don't know what people's offences are unless it's been a big cases and other prisoners recognise who you are etc.

There are high priority prisoners who still socialise with other inmates and eat in same cafeteria etc but they are guarded 24/7 by their own personal officer to make sure no harm comes to them or them to other inmates.*

Interesting. I don't know much about prison life and have no personal experience of it so good to know.

It's a relief to know that there are at least personal officers for some inmates!

I imagine feminine looking young men are vulnerable to sexual assault in prison. Should they be put in the female estate too?

Well no, more protection is needed to keep them safe in the male prison Hmm

But unless I'm mistaken, men are actually less likely to be raped in prison than both cis and trans women/people on the outside are in most countries. I think someone did the maths a while ago.

Regardless, isn't it obvious that one or two trans women (lower population anyway and I think they aren't as likely to commit crimes) who look "like women", dress "like women" and use feminine pronouns etc.are going to be more noticeable, isolated and more targeted in a prison full of predominantly straight men who adhere to gender stereotypes than a guy with long eyelashes?

rosesandflowers · 05/06/2018 13:10

Lol pardon me - trans people are 3% more likely than women in college, not 3 times more likely.

CantankerousCamel · 05/06/2018 13:12

Trans identifying males who commit crimes (more often than not violent crimes FYI) should be in isolation for their own protection in the prisons designed for their sex.

EmpressOfSpartacus · 05/06/2018 13:14

So the basis for letting transwomen in female prisons is what? They are vulnerable to attacks and sexual assault.

This reminds me of one of the scenarios in that horrendous schools pack put out by the Crown Prosecution Service. A trans-identifying boy went into the girls' toilets & the girls were clearly uncomfortable with his presence. So he went into the boys' toilets instead & got beaten up.

Who was the blame aimed at? The boys who attacked him? Of course not, it was all the girls' fault for not putting males first. And this is just the same, there's never a suggestion that anything should be done about the male violence. It's just up to the women to budge over.

CantankerousCamel · 05/06/2018 13:14

rose
With all due respect, you seem to know very little about how the prison system works.

Before making blanket statements about prisoners or suggesting you have some better way of doing things, perhaps go and educate yourself on the topic at hand?

rosesandflowers · 05/06/2018 13:20

University of Michigan reports that; around 50% of trans people report having been sexually assaulted at least once. Of that 50%, 27% reported only reported being assaulted once, and the remainder (23%) reported being assaulted more than once.

sapac.umich.edu/article/trans-survivors-what-allies-should-know-and-how

According to the Scottish Trans Alliance, 47% of respondents had experienced some form of sexual abuse from a partner
or ex-partner. www.scottishtrans.org/trans-rights/practice/sexual-violence-abuse/
You have to download the PDF though. I would - it's got lots of other stats/information.

But, I've found a PDF of what the article I read was based on! It's MCASA - Maryland Coalition Against Sexual Assault. It says:

An estimated 50% of transgender people experience sexual violence at some point in their lifetimes.

In a 2011 report, researchers asked transgender individuals about treatment received by response services. 22% of
respondents who have interacted with police reported harassment by police, with much higher rates reported by people of
color.

46% of respondents reported being uncomfortable seeking police assistance. Additionally, 10% of respondents
reported being sexually assaulted by medical professionals.

13% of African-American transgender people surveyed were sexually assaulted in the workplace.

22% of transgender individuals experiencing homelessness were assaulted while staying in shelters.

Only 9% of transgender survivors of sexual assault report their assault to the police.

12% of transgender youth report being sexually assaulted in K-12 settings by peers or educational staff.

24% of American Indian transgender students, 18% of multiracial transgender students. 17% of Asian transgender students,
and 15% of Black transgender students experienced sexual assault.

15% of transgender individuals who identified as male to female (MTF) experienced sexual assault, while 10% of their female
to male (FTM) peers experienced sexual assault.

rosesandflowers · 05/06/2018 13:26

Who was the blame aimed at? The boys who attacked him? Of course not, it was all the girls' fault for not putting males first.

That's hideous Shock Was the boy grievously injured? Did anything happen to the boys who beat him up?

With all due respect, you seem to know very little about how the prison system works.

I'd definitely say I'm more educated on gender than I am on the prison system. But we're all here to learn, no?

Perhaps it was naive of me to expect that there would be a lot of protection against sexual assault in prison. I guess it's just such common knowledge I assumed at some point somebody would do something about this.

In all honesty I'm more talking from a common sense point of view. I don't know much about expenses inside prison etc. I do know that the current system won't work, isn't working and won't feasibly work without serious remodelling in the future.

PosyFossilsShoes · 05/06/2018 13:26

@rosesandflowers I know it's a fast paced thread, and you may have missed it, but in view of your fictitious examples what do you make of the real example I gave at my post of 11.29 of Green v SSJ? I would be really interested to know if it changes your view at all.

rosesandflowers · 05/06/2018 13:29

I know it's a fast paced thread, and you may have missed it, but in view of your fictitious examples what do you make of the real example I gave at my post of 11.29 of Green v SSJ? I would be really interested to know if it changes your view at all.

I have indeed missed it. Hold on - I'll go back a few pages and read up.

Letmesuckyourblood · 05/06/2018 13:30

Rosesandflowers

Yes it is. I'm sure people have heard of Rose West. She is in general population in the prison with a personal officer assigned to her at all times.

GeordieTerf · 05/06/2018 13:31

There is a practical purpose to segregating people by sex.

I cannot see any purpose to segregating people via gender. Not one. You would be separating based on personality.

CantankerousCamel · 05/06/2018 13:36

rose even without the sexual abuse factor that is found in most trans identifying Male prisoners, there is still the issue with males being larger and stronger than females. This is not because of ‘gender’ but because of biology.

The reason we separate males and females is due to males being bigger and more violent than females and females being at risk of sexual assault from males.

It’s pretty clear from this thread alone that a Male being ‘transgender’ removes neither of these worries. Therefore women should continue to be segregated to protect women and men should work at making their own spaces safer rather than invading ours

rosesandflowers · 05/06/2018 13:37

I cannot see any purpose to segregating people via gender. Not one. You would be separating based on personality.

What does personality have to do with gender?

I'm really sorry @PosyFossilsShoes (btw I used to love Ballet Shoes) but I really can't find the post! Do you know what page it's on?

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