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To think rapists do not belong in women’s prisons

253 replies

Magpiesarehuge · 03/06/2018 10:38

I know it’s already happened but seems there are other violent male prisoners hoping to move to female prisons. I’d really like to hear what female prisoners feel about this as the article claims many feel intimidated. This just seem absolutely crazy that this is happening - is there no though or concern all for the women prisoners? I just can’t get my head around this logic.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5798945/Trans-women-convicted-men-attack-vulnerable-inmates.html

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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catinboots9 · 04/06/2018 17:15

I work in women's prisons (not an officer) and as far as I'm aware, trans women with an intact penis are kept in segregation. Only post operative transwomen are allowed to live on normal location.

PencilsInSpace · 04/06/2018 17:38

That's not in the PSI catinboots and is clearly not what is happening.

It would be unacceptable from a human rights perspective if it was.

catinboots9 · 04/06/2018 18:21

@PencilsInSpace which PSI?

catinboots9 · 04/06/2018 18:24

@PencilsInSpace that just linked to a piece from Howard's League. There are hundreds of prisoners up and down the country held 'unlawfully' in seg. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe a transwoman with fully intact male anatomy has been allowed to reside on normal location anywhere on the female estate (good god I hop in not wrong)

catinboots9 · 04/06/2018 18:25

*hope I'm not wrong

(Sorry fat thumbs)

Magpiesarehuge · 04/06/2018 18:38

cstinboots - i think you’re wrong

OP posts:
rosesandflowers · 04/06/2018 18:41

So then you'd be against people who've acquired their GRC under self-ID - i.e. no psychologist assessment, no gatekeeping - having the automatic right to enter the estate of their preferred gender? As per PencilsInSpace excellent post. That is what I think most of us are worried about right now.

I'd be against any Tom, Dick or Harry announcing they're trans and being moved, yes. In a prison, people are cruel, immoral and would have no problem throwing trans people under the bus to be in a comfier prison.

What I don't agree with is just reverting back to the old system. It doesn't work for trans people, and it doesn't work for cis inmates either.

I'm curious as to how believing in some kind of psychology evaluation before next steps are taken is transphobic. In a prison setting obviously you have to be careful. In every day life, people are mistaken fairly often, no? Gender is confusing and complex. Not to mention due to the overload on gender stereotypes in our society, children get their wires crossed. There are non reversible hormones on offer, aren't there? And surgery is obviously pretty permanent.

Precautions should be taken before any permanent decisions.

catinboots9 · 04/06/2018 18:44

@Magpiesarehuge I bloody hope so.

But could you provide me with an example. I'm truly not being facetious.

I understand things will change after self ID but would like to read a documented case so far.

catinboots9 · 04/06/2018 18:46

@Magpiesarehuge I think with facts and figures and genuine case studies we will be taken far more seriously than we are currently portrayed by the trans lobby as transphobic

fruitcider · 04/06/2018 19:03

I've just looked at that FairPlay data and they and the MOJ have missed at least 3 prisoners, my establishment is not listed on there...

rosesandflowers · 04/06/2018 19:04

I think with facts and figures and genuine case studies we will be taken far more seriously than we are currently portrayed by the trans lobby as transphobic

That's the thing - a lot of people talking on this forum sound pretty transphobic, and it doesn't help. At all.

catinboots9 · 04/06/2018 19:09

@Opheliah

The most violent dangerous women already are housed in male prisons because female prisons can't accommodate them. The numbers are so low though like 1 or 2 women in total.*

PPs have asked for evidence. I call simple bullshit.

catinboots9 · 04/06/2018 19:10

@fruitcider would you mind relinking that data? I saw it now have lost it on the thread Smile

CantankerousCamel · 04/06/2018 19:14

I’ve already shared two links involving three complete males housed in general population in women’s prisons.

I very much doubt they are the only ones

catinboots9 · 04/06/2018 19:18

Thanks @CantankerousCamel I will go back and look

fruitcider · 04/06/2018 19:34

@catinboots9 fairplayforwomen.com/prison-data-confirmed/

Grumpybearblue · 04/06/2018 20:04

So the basis for letting transwomen in female prisons is what? They are vulnerable to attacks and sexual assault. They pose no risk to women as they are 'women'.

So where do we draw the line?

What about a small gay man imprisoned for a non violent crime? He's at risk in a man's prison. He does not pose a risk to women. Should we let him in? What about a very elderly prisoner with impotence? Should we let him in.

I do feel genuine transwomen who are attracted to men should be in the women's estate, but it openes too many doors for others. I think a new solution needs to be thought of.

CantankerousCamel · 04/06/2018 20:14

Grumpy
Exactly. It reeks of men prisons and ‘non men’ prisons

PencilsInSpace · 04/06/2018 20:26

The most violent dangerous women already are housed in male prisons because female prisons can't accommodate them. The numbers are so low though like 1 or 2 women in total.

I don't know if there are any current 'female prisoners in the male estate' but yes this is the arrangement for any legally female (i.e. an actual woman or a tw with a GRC) who cannot be safely managed in the female estate. It's only used in exceptional circumstances and they are kept separately from the men.

These are screenshots from the prison instructions for trans prisoners, which is available here (scroll down to '17/2016 The Care and Management of Transgender Offenders') The relevant bits here are not the highlighted bits.

The highlighted bits are one of the reasons everyone should care about the upcoming GRA consultation.

A GRC is pretty much an obsolete document these days because we have equal marriage, all docs except a birth certificate can be changed without one and pension age equalises this year. Prison placement is about the only time when it still makes a practical difference.

I know lots of prisoners are held in segregation longer and more often than is legal but there is quite rightly no way the prison service would get away with that as a routine way to treat trans prisoners who had not had genital surgery. Solitary sends people mad and should never be a routine way of treating any prisoners.

Can you imagine the uproar there would have been if Tara Hudson had been kept in segregation after all that fuss getting moved?

To think rapists do not belong in women’s prisons
To think rapists do not belong in women’s prisons
PencilsInSpace · 04/06/2018 20:42

That's the thing - a lot of people talking on this forum sound pretty transphobic, and it doesn't help. At all.

No, this doesn't work any more.

Women have been silenced with smears of transphobia (and far worse, up to and including physical violence) for a few years now, while this stuff has been quietly pushed through.

It's water off a duck's back for many of us now. Everything's transphobic. Ducks are probably transphobic.

We're half the population. We all have a right to say what we think about legal changes that affect us.

It’s sometimes difficult to remember, amongst all the arguments, exactly what women stand to lose here. The sex category ‘female’ is being asked to absorb the sex category ‘male’. What women are being forced to accept could literally not be any more extreme.

(Helen Saxby)

FreiasBathtub · 04/06/2018 22:06

@rosesandflowers

Yes, that was a slightly tongue in cheek comment. But unfortunately some very vocal activists do hold that any kind of gatekeeping process is transphobic. That's why they're pushing for self ID.

On the app so not sure this link will work but read some of the responses from the 2015 Women and Equalities Select Committee enquiry into trans issues www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/women-and-equalities-committee/inquiries/parliament-2015/transgender-equality/ they're pretty enlightening.

PencilsInSpace · 04/06/2018 23:26

What I don't agree with is just reverting back to the old system. It doesn't work for trans people, and it doesn't work for cis inmates either.

By 'cis inmates' do you mean actual female prisoners?

Sex-segregated prison estates work best for female prisoners in terms of safety, privacy, dignity, wellbeing and rehabilitation. Women in prison have had no say in the removal of their sex-based rights in the name of trans inclusion.

Obviously trans prisoners need accommodating as well and the prison service has a duty to safeguard the wellbeing of every prisoner, however they identify, but it's not women's problem to sort out where trans prisoners should be housed.

It's absolutely fine for women to simply say we want our sex-based rights upheld, even if we don't have the solution. It's the job of the prison service and the government to work out how to uphold women's rights while also upholding the rights of trans prisoners.

I'm curious as to how believing in some kind of psychology evaluation before next steps are taken is transphobic. In a prison setting obviously you have to be careful. In every day life, people are mistaken fairly often, no? Gender is confusing and complex. Not to mention due to the overload on gender stereotypes in our society, children get their wires crossed. There are non reversible hormones on offer, aren't there? And surgery is obviously pretty permanent.

Precautions should be taken before any permanent decisions.

Yes, it's all very worrying and the move to demedicalise trans will adversely affect lots of vulnerable people. is Theresa May anouncing that being trans is not an illness and should not be treated as such.

The proposals are that everything is stripped out of the GRA except for the self-declaration. No psychological evaluation, no being careful, possibly no NHS funded surgery or homones because if trans is not an illness why should the NHS fund treatment? This is a tory policy, don't forget.

PencilsInSpace · 04/06/2018 23:46

Women in prison are among the least able to stand up for their rights. They have no option to just go elsewhere. Nobody listens to them because of the prevailing attitude of 'just don't do a crime then it won't affect you'.

Women in prison are among the most vulnerable women in our society. Subjecting these women to male people in their shared accommodation is for many a continuation of the abuse they have suffered since childhood.

From the article in the OP: Prison reformer Frances Crook said that she was worried that ‘some men with a history of extreme violence and sexual violence against women have found a new way of exercising aggression towards women’.

Ms Crook, executive director of the Howard League for Penal Reform, added: ‘These men are not transitioning because they like women and want to be a woman, but in order to exert a new kind of control and dominance over women, a sort of infiltration.

We can't not talk about this.

Waddlelikeapenguin · 05/06/2018 00:04

YANBU & Andrea Albutt, president of the Prison Governors Association, seems to agree too “I have seen women feeling very threatened by transgender prisoners’ presence . . . To put men who declare they are women into women’s prisons would be very damaging.”
From
Governors fight putting trans inmates in women’s jails
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/governors-fight-trans-inmates-in-women-s-jails-vg0kpv5q0?shareToken=2a1a45ad952bd5af1fe2bbe36944321c

Think about why we have single sex places including prisons, everywhere will essentially be mixed sex if gender self id comes in.
This petition asks the government to consult more widely-
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

catinboots9 · 05/06/2018 09:28

@CantankerousCamel the examples you and others posted have all even in Scotland. What the hell are they playing at?

But I'm still saying there has been no documented case in an English female prison of a penis owner being allowed to reside on normal location, thank god.

It is damaging to what we as women are trying to convey if we are seen to be a bunch of hysterical harpies jumping up and down screeching about 'rapists in women's prisons' when it is factually not correct and we have no evidence to back up our claims.

It's playing into the hands of the TRAs who just smack us down and label us as transphobic.