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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think rapists do not belong in women’s prisons

253 replies

Magpiesarehuge · 03/06/2018 10:38

I know it’s already happened but seems there are other violent male prisoners hoping to move to female prisons. I’d really like to hear what female prisoners feel about this as the article claims many feel intimidated. This just seem absolutely crazy that this is happening - is there no though or concern all for the women prisoners? I just can’t get my head around this logic.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5798945/Trans-women-convicted-men-attack-vulnerable-inmates.html

OP posts:
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PosyFossilsShoes · 05/06/2018 13:42

I have everything scrolling as a single page, so I don't - I'll just repost it, here you go:

@rosesandflowers and anybody else who wonders what actual examples might look like, here's one: R (Green) v Secretary of State for Justice

It's long, so I'll grab a couple of quick excerpts and you will get the gist:

5. ...The claimant is a man, but for the purposes of this judgment I shall refer to him in the female gender as she has changed her name by deed-poll

9. On 21st December 2005 the claimant (together with other family members) was convicted of the murder of Rachel Hudson in the Crown Court at Nottingham before Mr Justice Hughes (as he then was) following a 5 week trial. The claimant was sentenced to Life Imprisonment with a minimum term of 14 years less time served on remand before sentence. There were concurrent sentences of 4 and 5 years for doing acts tending to pervert the course of justice. The entire family subjected Mrs Hudson to repeated beatings and violence.

9. It is clear the claimant, at least in the past, was capable of serious dishonesty by telling lies.

10. The claimant asserts that she is desirous of transferring her gender from male to female. It is not clear when this profound change took place. Certain it is the claimant has male genitalia and physical appearance. I am told she is now bald.

19. It is unclear whether the claimant has a diagnosis of dysphoria. The evidence on behalf of the Governor provided by Mr Peter Jobling (the segregation unit manager) reveals an unclear (certainly uncorroborated) view as to the precise medical position of the claimant. As of April 2011 a consultant psychiatrist at Charring Cross Hospital in London (Gender Identity Clinic) regarded the claimant as "a conundrum" who appeared to be saying different things to different people. He indicated her description of transsexualism to be of recent origin. Regardless of that diagnostic conundrum there is no doubt the Governor has treated the claimant as a transgender prisoner. She stated she was transgender upon arrival and has been a vocal member of the prison's group of transgender prisoners. The claimant enjoys an enhanced IEP status within the prison.

Green had made repeated complaints which are detailed in the judgment, mostly about lack of access to wigs, false breasts and a prosthetic vagina, and also wanted tights and for some reason sanitary towels.

The judge upheld the Governor's response which was that wigs provide an obvious escape risk, prosthetics a mechanism for contraband, tights a self-harm risk, and that the Claimant was already allowed to dress in women's clothes and wear make up on the wing, but chose not to do so (para 25(7))

Interestingly, the judgment also touched on the application of the Equality Act:

66. The claimant asserts the comparator should be a female prisoner; whereas the governor contends it should be a male prisoner. There can be no doubt the claimant has a protected characteristic – gender reassignment. The claimant is, however, male. The only possible comparator is to a male prisoner who is not undergoing gender reassignment...
68. Frankly, it is almost beyond argument that the only comparator is a male Category B prisoner at HMP Frankland. I am influenced by the judgment of the Court of Appeal in Croft v Royal Mail Group PLC [2003] EWCA (Civ) 1045. I find it impossible to see how a female prisoner can be regarded as the appropriate comparator. The claimant is a man seeking to become a woman – but he is still of the male gender and a male prisoner. He is in a male prison and until there is a Gender Recognition Certificate, he remains male. A woman prisoner cannot conceivably be the comparator as the woman prisoner has (either by birth or election) achieved what the claimant wishes. Male to female transsexuals are not automatically entitled to the same treatment as women – until they become women.

Self ID would change that, because on a self-ID regime Green would have been able to acquire the GRC simply on application. It would be a terrible idea for someone who is a proven liar, a serious physical threat to women, who is not diagnosed with GID, and (in my view from reading the judgment) a fetishist, to be accommodated in their desire for a fake vag and relocation to the women's estate simply on their own election.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 05/06/2018 13:44

Statistics

CuriousaboutSamphire · 05/06/2018 13:48

Oops! Sorry
2015 USA
One in five women and one in 71 men will be raped at some point in their lives

46.4% lesbians, 74.9% bisexual women and 43.3% heterosexual women reported sexual violence other than rape during their lifetimes,
40.2% gay men, 47.4% bisexual men and 20.8% heterosexual
men reported sexual violence other than rape during
their lifetimes.
Nearly one in 10 women has been raped by an intimate partner in her lifetime, including completed forced penetration, attempted forced penetration or alcohol/drug-facilitated completed penetration.
Approximately one in 45 men has been made to penetrate an intimate partner during his lifetime.
91% of the victims of rape and sexual assault are female, and 9% are male
In eight out of 10 cases of rape, the victim knew the person who sexually assaulted them
8% of rapes occur while the victim is at work

UK 2018 National Crime Survey

One in five women in England and Wales have experienced some type of sexual assault since the age of 16

More than 510,000 women – an estimated 3.1% of all women aged 16 to 59 – experienced some type of sexual assault in the past year.

So... tell me again how the number of transwomen raped is ^off the scale* ...

rosesandflowers · 05/06/2018 13:58

Nearly one in 10 women has been raped by an intimate partner in her lifetime, including completed forced penetration, attempted forced penetration or alcohol/drug-facilitated completed penetration.

Wasn't it 40% or so in terms of trans people in relationships?

One in five women and one in 71 men will be raped at some point in their lives

And trans people it was 50%, I think - so 1 in 2?

rosesandflowers · 05/06/2018 14:01

@PosyFossilsShoes

An interesting case. It definitely reaffirms that allowing criminals to announce they are trans and relocate is a bad idea - but that doesn't change my perspective exactly.

I think the fact that it was pointed out that wigs etc. offered risks was yet another avenue to explore. For trans people who were genuine, would they present a similar risk? There definitely needs to be some specific legislation on this.

Did anything else happen to the criminal in question? Also, for what reason did he want sanitary pads?

CantankerousCamel · 05/06/2018 14:13

Rose

Trans people aren’t getting raped by women.

Why when someone brings up why women wouldn’t want Males around them because of a lifetime of abuse and assault from males, you just disregard it?

noeffingidea · 05/06/2018 14:27

And trans people it was 50% I think - so 1 in 2
No you said 50% reported suffering sexual violence, not rape. That could really mean anything.
I really would be very surprised if 50% of transwomen have been raped, though one would more of a breakdown of the respondants, of course.

rosesandflowers · 05/06/2018 14:34

Why when someone brings up why women wouldn’t want Males around them because of a lifetime of abuse and assault from males, you just disregard it?

Do you struggle with reading comprehension?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 05/06/2018 14:35

The stats differentiate rape and sexual assault roses

Read the stats again...

CuriousaboutSamphire · 05/06/2018 14:36

Do you struggle with reading comprehension? Oh, the irony, the irony!!! Grin

rosesandflowers · 05/06/2018 14:37

I really would be very surprised if 50% of transwomen have been raped, though one would more of a breakdown of the respondants, of course.

I'll see if there are more specific figures in the report or elsewhere.

rosesandflowers · 05/06/2018 14:39

Oh, the irony, the irony!!!

I can imagine that sounded spectacularly ironic 😂 and also that I probably sounded rude.

Regardless, I suggest you just go back and read my posts again, @CantankerousCamel

rosesandflowers · 05/06/2018 14:45

I checked where the data that was used to make the stats comes from. It defines sexual violence as:

  • Completed or attempted forced penetration of a victim.
  • Completed or attempted alcohol or drug-facilitated penetration of a victim.
  • Completed or attempted forced acts in which a victim is made to penetrate someone.
  • Completed or attempted alcohol or drug-facilitated acts in which a victim is made to penetrate someone.
Unwanted sexual contact, such as; intentional touching, either directly or through the clothing, of the genitalia, anus, groin, breast, inner thigh, or buttocks of any person without his or her consent, or of a person who is unable to consent. Unwanted sexual contact also includes making a victim touch the perpetrator.

No specific stats though. If anyone comes across any it would be fantastic.

CantankerousCamel · 05/06/2018 14:54

Why did you aim that at me?

I’ve questioned your continued derailing of the subject of women’s rights with endless (false) stats regarding transgender people.

PosyFossilsShoes · 05/06/2018 14:55

An interesting case. It definitely reaffirms that allowing criminals to announce they are trans and relocate is a bad idea - but that doesn't change my perspective exactly.

It is interesting, isn't it. The thing is that for the law to work, you need it to work for everyone. So if people outside prison can self-ID, so can those inside. If people outside can get a GRC without a dysphoria diagnosis, so can those inside.

I think the most striking thing about it for me is that I used to believe very strongly that nobody would just ID as trans for vexatious purposes, and that nobody would be treated as such purely by virtue of slapping on a wig and demanding to be called a woman - both sentiments you expressed upthread - and yet there we go, I was totally wrong.

I think the fact that it was pointed out that wigs etc. offered risks was yet another avenue to explore. For trans people who were genuine, would they present a similar risk? There definitely needs to be some specific legislation on this.

Green was being treated as a genuine transwoman. Although I got the impression that the judge thought Green was a total chancer, the refusal of wigs etc wasn't because of being deemed not genuinely trans, but because of the risks. So yes, those who genuinely want to transition in prison wouldn't be allowed those either.

Did anything else happen to the criminal in question? Also, for what reason did he want sanitary pads?

I don't know what happened next, although Green is eligible for release next year. I guess the reason for the request for sanitary pads was either to service a fetish, or to make vexatious demands of the prison service, or because of delusions - whatever reason it was, it certainly wasn't to soak up menstrual blood!

rosesandflowers · 05/06/2018 15:00

Sorry for the barrage of posts but found a different set of stats.
They're broken down but only apply to sexual abuse within abusive relationships, as the study's focus is on domestic abuse with sexual abuse stats as part of it.

32% report they have been pressured or forced into sexual intercourse.

33% report they have been pressured or forced into doing another sexual activity they did not want to do (e.g. oral sex).

12% have been pressurised or forced into viewing pornographic material with their partner.

2% were pressurised or forced to engage in sexual activity with others outside the relationship for payment.

47% had a partner exhibiting at least one of these behaviours frequently.

So if 1 in 10 women have been raped by an intimate partner in their lifetime, obviously 33% is more. However, the phrasing makes me think they might have encompassed trans women forced to penetrate others as well, which will make it slightly cloudier.

Regardless, it's clear that it's a problem.

rosesandflowers · 05/06/2018 15:02

I’ve questioned your continued derailing of the subject of women’s rights with endless (false) stats regarding transgender people.
Why do you think they're false?

And I'll be happy to provide you with copy and pastes of my comments on women's rights in this forum Hmm I put up the stats because I mentioned trans people were vulnerable to sexual assault and someone asked for evidence.

PosyFossilsShoes · 05/06/2018 15:06

% of transwomen generally who experience rape =/= % of transwomen in abusive relationships who experience rape

If you did the same stats, filtering for women in abusive relationships, the number would rise from 10%, probably to a similar or greater number. Not least because the predictor is the behaviour of an abusive male partner, not the gender of the partner who is the victim.

I wish the whole lot of us could work together against male violence because that's the problem, it's not an invalidated identity or a misgendering that assaults transwomen, it's men.

DrawingLife · 05/06/2018 15:10

I think it's naive to assume that male prisoners would not try to claim they are trans to get an easier ride within a male prison, and a transfer to female prison if they're lucky. There's quite a number of violent offenders who have made careers as activists, being received in the House of Lords or making the Talk Show circuit, and lauded as stunning and brave instead of despised as rapists, wife beaters and murderers.
People like Huntley are psychopaths, narcissists. They don't have the same feelings of shame or sense of consequences "ordinary" ppl have. Many MTF prisoners discover their "transness" IN PRISON. That alone should be a clue.
Of course I am not saying "all trans prisoners". But yes, I do believe there is an incentive to claim to be trans. It's almost impossible to prove someone isn't, especially with the current "education" and training by trans lobbyists going on in all public organisations.

I do see where you're coming from, Roseandflowers, and I think it would be great to live in a society where people can live as they choose. I would love to see a big discussion about how to make life easier for trans ppl.

In the current climate however my priority must be to safeguard women's rights against a trans ideology that seeks to take away every single-sex space from women on the basis of a male's say-so. Women as a biological sex are a protected category under the Equalities Act. There HAS to be gatekeeping. And as long as nobody is willing to define what a "trans woman" even is - and current trans activism uses "trans woman" as an extremely loose, vaguely defined umbrella term that even includes part-timers and cross dressers - I will fight tooth and nail against the lazy, cowardly way all-female organisations and resources are being opened to males.

I read the thoughtful, interesting articles about the problems of trans ppl in prisons and in hospitals and mental health facilities and I do sympathise with the struggle. But NOBODY asks about the feelings and struggles of the women in these places! In places where women are vulnerable and have none or limited choice the principles of dignity, safety, privacy and fairness which are the basis for sex based exceptions in the Equalities Act should be defended and kept in place. Categorically.
THIS is the basis upon which we should start a discussion how to make life easier for trans ppl. With proper impact assessments of how negative consequences for women and girls can be avoided. Not as an afterthought, not tagged on, not calling women who want this bigots and the discussions hate speech. As is happening right now. Youth Hostels. Girl Guides. All female Spas. Women should have the right to have spaces without male bodies. Period.

rosesandflowers · 05/06/2018 15:13

I think the most striking thing about it for me is that I used to believe very strongly that nobody would just ID as trans for vexatious purposes, and that nobody would be treated as such purely by virtue of slapping on a wig and demanding to be called a woman - both sentiments you expressed upthread - and yet there we go, I was totally wrong.

I think this applies more to normal life than that in prison. In everyday life there are way more downsides to being trans than there are positives. The discrimination, microaggressions, prejudices, hatred etc. - it really isn't cancelled out by a cute flag. I can't see anyone stable voluntarily doing it.

In prison, however, there's a different scenario. It is one of the few places where it would be advantageous.

As for putting on a wig and saying you're a woman, I think because of the earlier thing, I think all people saying they're trans should be taken seriously. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be discussed or investigated further, but they shouldn't be met with laughter or suspicion with immediacy (except if someone is a criminal compulsive liar, in which suspicion is fairly justified.)

Although I got the impression that the judge thought Green was a total chancer, the refusal of wigs etc wasn't because of being deemed not genuinely trans, but because of the risks. So yes, those who genuinely want to transition in prison wouldn't be allowed those either.

I think the line "I've been told she is bald" or whatever the judge said had a kind of dry tone that suggested they thought the prisoner was full of shit.

It's interesting they wouldn't allow wigs though. What if the trans person consistently wore one wig? Couldn't they argue it was essentially treatment?

I guess the reason for the request for sanitary pads was either to service a fetish, or to make vexatious demands of the prison service, or because of delusions - whatever reason it was, it certainly wasn't to soak up menstrual blood!

I remember when I was young a friend told me that some men like dressing up in feminine clothing and going to buy sanitary pads as a humiliation fetish.

Not sure what actually happened when the sanitary pads were received though. Especially in a case like this where he was requesting it through a court room. What would he get out of it?

Truly psycho.

rosesandflowers · 05/06/2018 15:16

If you did the same stats, filtering for women in abusive relationships, the number would rise from 10%

Surely if the women have been raped by the partner, the relationship is abusive to some degree?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 05/06/2018 15:16

So if 1 in 10 women have been raped by an intimate partner in their lifetime, obviously 33% is more Try it this way...

How many trans women in the UK?

Half a million UK women reported that they were sexually assaulted last year alone.

CantankerousCamel · 05/06/2018 15:17

rose

That’s fine but doesn’t explain why you bolded someone else’s cries of Irony and then tagged me

rosesandflowers · 05/06/2018 15:33

There HAS to be gatekeeping.

I get where you're coming from and see how this could be taken advantage of. My only question is, how do you gatekeep without literally just inspecting everyone's genitalia upon arrival?

I think I mentioned they tried to do this in bathrooms - somewhere in America I believe. The company had policemen outside the door who'd block the path of anyone they thought was trans. Only problem was - they couldn't tell. Obviously. Most clothes don't highlight whether you have a penis or not, and to avoid discrimination, assaults, misgendering, transphobic remarks etc. trans people generally avoid any that do. So the policemen went for any women not conforming to gender expectations.

They stopped a cis woman with short hair and not tight, fairly colourless clothes and demanded she not go into the bathroom. She went in, and so a policeman (who DID have a penis) went into the bathroom, removed her and dragged her away.

Don't think they have caught an actual trans person yet.

With proper impact assessments of how negative consequences for women and girls can be avoided. Not as an afterthought, not tagged on, not calling women who want this bigots and the discussions hate speech.
Agreed. Not taking into account every group is the reason the prison system doesn't work. There has to be a solution made for EVERYONE.

I think one of the main problems is that these discussions are so often invaded or sometimes even started by TERFs or others of that ilk. As such, any valid arguments are usually amid a sea of transphobia and many arguments are based on misconceptions, myths or outright hatred. It makes it difficult to differentiate and quite frankly it makes most people not want to try and comb through for anything valid in there. We need to start presenting worries based on fact and genuine concerns - not just because it means we're going to end up further contributing to the transphobia in our society, which is a very valid reason in itself, but because it just doesn't help at all.

Youth Hostels. Girl Guides. All female Spas.

This is more of a personal query, but I don't get what the fuss is about trans girls in Girl Guides etc? In a spa - I get that.
But what's the problem with a little trans girl going to Girl Guides?

rosesandflowers · 05/06/2018 15:38

*How many trans women in the UK?

Half a million UK women reported that they were sexually assaulted last year alone.*

People are made vulnerable to sexual assault not by the sheer number of them, but by the concentration with which that number is targeted.

That’s fine but doesn’t explain why you bolded someone else’s cries of Irony and then tagged me

You somehow missed me discussing issues surrounding sexual assault against women in several different posts. I asked (a little rudely, I must admit) if you had difficulty in reading comprehension.
Soon after that (or before - around that time) I confused rape and sexual violence.

A poster mentioned this was ironic.

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