To think rapists do not belong in women’s prisons

[Magpiesarehuge]

I know it’s already happened but seems there are other violent male prisoners hoping to move to female prisons. I’d really like to hear what female prisoners feel about this as the article claims many feel intimidated. This just seem absolutely crazy that this is happening - is there no though or concern all for the women prisoners? I just can’t get my head around this logic.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5798945/Trans-women-convicted-men-attack-vulnerable-inmates.html

@rosesandflowers

Why do you think it's better to segregate based on gender, rather than sex?

What is the purpose of segregating people by gender?

Why do you think it's better to segregate based on gender, rather than sex?

What is the purpose of segregating people by gender?

I said I don't think personality has anything to do with it (still unclear on how it would). But, as you ask, segregating by sex is just massively obtuse, archaic and cruel when it comes to trans people IMO. It would also have negative impacts for cis inmates and just is generally a wonderfully, overly simplistic way of doing things. It's a system that was put in place without any accommodation of trans people and now, in a society that is accommodating trans people more, that's starting to show. The result is huge repercussions for everyone on the gender spectrum.

I think segregating by gender would work better, but I still don't think it would work well. It also has a big potential to cause problems and, as this thread is pointing out, makes way for con artists to try and manipulate the system to their advantage.

Why I think other people support gender-based segregation (or, as you put it, it's "purpose") is because it is generally just more humane when you consider trans people, at least on the surface. I also honestly think that a "passing" trans person who happened to have a dick would cause less problems than a "passing" trans person in a prison that was sex-segregated, particularly if they were provided separate facilities. I can see how it would make more sense in many aspects than sex-based segregation.

However, as there are huge problems associated with both I think a new system altogether is needed. Or just a massive remodelling of our current one with lots of new precautions and laws put in place.

MCASA - All sources are listed directly on the leaflet, and for what statistics they were used for.

Have you read the sources? What aspects of the research led you to conclude they are the most reliable, particularly in light of my concerns about the survey you previously posted?

ScottishTrans
"the results of the survey cannot claim to be representative of the whole transgender population in Scotland"

• 60 responses including TIMs (28), TIFs (19) and others, including gender variant and cross-dressers (13)
• definition of "sexual abuse" included being forced to watch pornography, it's not clear if these are separate from the general numbers
• numbers not separated for TIMs, TIFs and others.
• no questions about participation in prostitution or other criminal behaviour.

What did you find most reliable about this study?

I don't know why I put "would also" when it's the current system... that should say "it also has a negative impact on cis inmates".

segregating by sex is just massively obtuse, archaic and cruel when it comes to trans people IMO. It would also have negative impacts for cis inmates and just is generally a wonderfully, overly simplistic way of doing things.

98% of sexual crime is committed by those of the male sex, including trans identified males. This is the primary reason behind those situations where we segregate based on sex.

Have you considered how humane it is to remove sex segregation protections for the female sex?

Have you read the sources? What aspects of the research led you to conclude they are the most reliable, particularly in light of my concerns about the survey you previously posted?

Well for one thing, this is a non-profit organisation dedicated to ending domestic abuse for all types of people. It's not specifically focused on LGBT or trans people, which isn't necessarily indicative of a bias but could be the cause of one.

I've read R.L Stotzer's work, the Department of Justice I imagine is reliable. I think all their sources are peer-reviewed scholarly articles or directly from the Department of Justice, except Trans Student Educational Resources. However that is only used for the definitions given at the beginning so doesn't impact the actual stats.

What did you find most reliable about this study?
The survey was funded by the Scottish Government; it isn't an icky college website with a poor set-up, for one thing. It's a high-profile and well-reputed information resource concerning trans people.

The fact that they had a page before on methodology where they brought up possible shortcomings is a huge indicator of reliability to me. It is unlikely to have reached the whole trans population. It may not, for example, have reached transitioned people who no longer see themselves as being ‘trans’ or those who are isolated by other circumstances from transgender support networks. It usually suggests that it's been well thought out and they have considered the reliability of the survey before publishing.

They had a pretty good age distribution, a reasonable balance of responses from MTF and FTM. There was also a good variant in sexuality. The majority were well educated which (makes me sound dreadfully snobby I know) might make them more reliable in a survey.

The vast majority of them had had a fair amount of partners.

Have you considered how humane it is to remove sex segregation protections for the female sex?

Of course I've considered it. And it is an issue, coupled with many other issues in gender-based segregation, which I acknowledged had issues:
I think segregating by gender would work better, but I still don't think it would work well. It also has a big potential to cause problems

How on earth would segregating ‘by gender’ work better?

Most people can’t even define what gender IS

You've considered that the statement acknowledging the limitations of the study and that it can't be used to as representative of the population makes it more reliable I think you are confusing reliability with being unbiased. They're not the same thing you know.

I have the Stotzer article and I cannot see any reference to the 50% figure used by the MCASA in their "fact sheet". Can you point me to it?

That piece is a review paper, not a piece of research. Have you checked if all the sources she reviewed are peer-reviewed or what their methodology is? How have you assessed their reliability?

segregating by sex is just massively obtuse, archaic and cruel when it comes to trans people IMO. It would also have negative impacts for cis inmates and just is generally a wonderfully, overly simplistic way of doing things.

Cis not a thing. My biological sex does not need a prefix because another human has decided that they don't fit into the stereotype of the social construct we call gender. If someone wants to change their "gender" the prefix belongs firmly to them, thanks all the same.

Anyone with a genuine diagnosis from a psychiatrist is welcome in female services whether they have a penis or not.

Moving on, being as gender is a social construct with no biological basis, if someone has a penis and do not have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria they belong in services for those who have penises eg for males. As a woman and a feminist I do not want female to become "non man" or "other", women have been fighting for our rights for centuries and introducing males into female only services is a massive backwards step.

It's also not coincidence that 40% of transwomen currently in prison are violent sex offenders. These are not transwomen, they are sex offending men masquerading as transwomen in order to have access to vulnerable women. They enjoy using their penises to have power and control over women, and have no intention of fully transitioning. And this 40% is the reason why non gender dysphoric transwomen need to be kept out of female prisons.

PosyFossilsShoes - I think there are quite a few: Sophie Eastwood and Alex Stewart for a start, who had to be moved to different prisons after forming a relationship with each other.

Yes, they were in Scotland though. catinboots9 had very specific criteria:

1. TIM in a female prison
2. penis intact
3. mixing with female prisoners
4. in England not Scotland

Scotland is interesting because they seem to be a few steps ahead of England and Wales with regards to the erosion of women's rights in the name of trans inclusiveness. If we want to see where we are heading we should pay attention to Scotland.

In England and Wales the starting point for prisoner placement is legal sex. From what I can gather, in Scotland it's self-ID. That's why women like these in the attached pictures are housed with actual women in Scotland.

Scotland have recently had a consultation on the GRA. It's closed now but if you want to see how England and Wales' consultation might look, you can still download the docs here.

Local authorities and schools in Scotland have introduced trans inclusion guidance that removes the rights of female students to sex segregated spaces and sports. They have done this without consulting female students or their parents. They have acted illegally by not fulfilling the public sector equality duty - they have done no impact assessments to check these policies don't adversely affect any other protected group. Thread in FWR.

Scotland is at the absolute batshit vanguard of transactivism in the UK. For anyone tempted to dismiss Action for Trans Health as a fringe group to laugh at, they were invited to give oral evidence as part of the transgender equality inquiry and were quoted heavily in the final report. Meanwhile those of us with legitimate concerns were dismissed as women purporting to be feminists.

Ah, I missed the not in Scotland requirement!

No yanbu

Women's prisons are for women, not for men who identify as women. And most certainly not for rapists however they identify.

@PosyFossilsShoes
Ffs I didn't say 'not in scotland'

I was merely commenting

You did, cat: the examples you and others posted have all even in Scotland. What the hell are they playing at?

But I'm still saying there has been no documented case in an English female prison of a penis owner being allowed to reside on normal location, thank god.

I'm merely commenting too, as is Posy from what I can tell. We're not having a pop at you.

I asked if there were any documented cases in England which I was then provided with. And I thanked the poster who linked to them.

Sorry @PencilsInSpace I didn't mean to be so snippy! I was tired last night

Yes, I missed the "in England" bit and gave you more Scottish ones which was obviously not that helpful!

Does anyone know if there is a reason it's happening with scary frequency in Scotland? Are their laws different re self ID?

Tbh, i think Scotland often prides itself on differentiating itself from England in terms of how more progressive it is and rushes in on some issues to also show it has the power to do so.

It always makes me laugh when transactivists ask women if we intend to do checks of people's genitals to check if they're allowed to come in the loos.

As if we can't tell that a male who identifies as a woman, is male. As if we need to take a look at their genitals. Their massive span, height, their male gait and their over compensatory femininity performance mixed with their very obvious male socialisation, give most of them away within about 150 seconds.

Fuxache, we pretend we think they're women. Because we're kind and polite and socialised to pander to men's delusions and wishes, lest they hurt us. But we really don't need to examine very closely, to spot that most men who identify as women, are not in fact women. It's all right, you can keep your knickers on.

AskAuntyLydia, the hands and feet are another dead giveaway. Especially the hands. It's all about proportions. You can tell which sex almost anyone is on sight.

roses,
They're extremely vulnerable to rape and sexual assault. For trans people it's horrific; sexual assault records are off the charts. It's not something to minimise.

Women in prison are extremely vulnerable to rape and sexual assault - I work in the prison estate, and EVERY SINGLE WOMAN I have worked with has been the victim of rape and/or sexual assault as child and/or adult. Do you know anything about women in prison at all? Who is going to speak up for them? Who has ever spoken up for them?

FWIW, I think that any man who has raped, sexually assaulted, or murdered a woman should not be allowed inside the women's estate. This has nothing to do with the trans debate, and everything to do with protecting the most vulnerable section of our society - the women who we have failed to protect as children.