To think rapists do not belong in women’s prisons

[Magpiesarehuge]

I know it’s already happened but seems there are other violent male prisoners hoping to move to female prisons. I’d really like to hear what female prisoners feel about this as the article claims many feel intimidated. This just seem absolutely crazy that this is happening - is there no though or concern all for the women prisoners? I just can’t get my head around this logic.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5798945/Trans-women-convicted-men-attack-vulnerable-inmates.html

Uh.... Women can't rape.
Transwomen can because they're male.

The most violent dangerous women already are housed in male prisons because female prisons can't accommodate them. The numbers are so low though like 1 or 2 women in total.

I don't know why I did this in weird examples of two make believe people, but you get the gist. It's super complicated

Not really. One is female, one is male, they are both vulnerable therefore get housed with other vulnerable prisoners in prisons of their respective biological sexes like they do now. Men that have committed sexual offences against children and are housed on the vulnerable prisoners wing alongside transwomen have no interest in transwomen because they are paedophiles so are not a danger to adult women.

Women in female estates are generally not scared of women that present as men that do not have a penis. I have not heard reports that transwomen are being problematic in female estates.

The most violent dangerous women already are housed in male prisons because female prisons can't accommodate them. The numbers are so low though like 1 or 2 women in total.

Evidence please.

Rose you raise good questions, however, these are not peculiar to trans people. They are exactly the same issues for anyone in prison with a mental health condition, a disability, an addiction or any other vulnerability, which tbh must cover huge percentage of the prison population.

The handling of vulnerable prisoners and how we pay for appropriate support is something that needs consideration and probably reform.

Putting a man in a women's prison because he says he wants to be a woman is not an acceptable quick fix to the problem of poor support in the prison of the person's biological sex. It creates more problems than it solves and hurts more people than it saves, as we are seeing now.

The most violent dangerous women already are housed in male prisons because female prisons can't accommodate them. The numbers are so low though like 1 or 2 women in total.*

Evidence please.

I don’t know about standard prisons, but I can tell you certainly that there are transmen who are violent criminals that are in custody in psychiatric units (looking at these articles I guess they are not included in the overall ‘prison’ statistics). They are presenting as much (in fact my source tells me more) of a difficulty than cases of trans women in these units. They attempt to violently abuse other female patients, may be on hormones, but can not be placed on a male ward. The only solution I can see is to have a 3rd or 4th ward for trans women/men.

@RabbitsAreTasty great post.

@rosesandflowers to continue your hypotheticals...

Alice is a 6'5 45-year-old transwoman who has identified as such for eight months. She has been imprisoned for a violent but not sexual offence. She retains her primary and secondary male sexual characteristics and has no desire to undergo hormone therapy or bottom surgery. However, she wears makeup, a wig and women's clothing.

Where should Alice go? Would your answer be different if she were 5'5? Or had identified as a woman for 8 years instead of 8 months? What about if she wanted surgery but couldn't afford it? What about if she 'passed'? And 'passed' to whom? What about if her offense was sexual?

If you're letting Sabrina into a woman's prison, you need a good reason why Alice can't go too. Alice is going to challenge that reason in the courts. It's going to be expensive. And if you do let Alice in, there are going to be A LOT of men claiming to be just like Alice in order to get into the (perceived) cushy women's estate, or to get access to vulnerable women. How do you 'prove' whether they're genuine or not?

Personally, I think that spending the money to provide specialist facilities for trans prisoners (just as you should for any other vulnerable group in prison) is much better than spending it on a tonne of test cases, psychiatric assessments and lobbying WHILE AT THE SAME TIME completely failing to protect the vulnerable natal women in the women's estate.

In short: I don't understand why Sabrina and Alice's physical and psychological safety comes ahead of the physical and psychological safety of all the natal women who are in prison. Yes, it's a thorny question but I really, truly, can't understand why you'd come down on the side of the very few rather than the many?

I don’t know about standard prisons, but I can tell you certainly that there are transmen who are violent criminals that are in custody in psychiatric units

Well they wouldn't be included in prison statistics, as they are on a hospital ward and not in prison. Where generally you have 3 registered nurses and 3 healthcare assistants for 12 (or even less) patients, rather than 5 prison officers and 2 nurses for 120 prisoners. The rations are just a tad different

It needs to be a case by case basis which I understand it pretty much is, at the moment.

The issue is that once self id comes in, the prisons can no longer control it. Sex offenders and men with a fetish for dressing as woman will automatically be put with women, women who they can rape, abuse, violate and control.

I don't think anyone thinks a genuine transexual that presents as a woman and is in prison for a non violent offence should be in a men's prison - because of course it would make them very vulnerable to assault and rape. The concern is men taking advantage of self Id getting free acsess to women's prisons. People who think it will not happen are very nieve, it's already happening. Self Id means they don't even have to change sex or present as women, they just have to say they are and they are.

As far as I know there is no plans for prisons to stop segregating on genitalia and start segregating on the social construct that is gender in England. People can present with whatever paperwork they wish, but as all new prisoners are strip searched on arrival it won't really matter, if they have a penis they will be redirected to male estates regardless of what they state their gender is and vice versa for people with vaginas.

No fruit if you look at the links I shared, both contain stories of penis holders in female prisons.

It’s all about the menz feelz

The most violent dangerous women already are housed in male prisons because female prisons can't accommodate them. The numbers are so low though like 1 or 2 women in total.

Isn't Jo Anna Denahey in a woman's prison.

OP article with link;

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5798945/Trans-women-convicted-men-attack-vulnerable-inmates.html

The new figures reveal that in April last year there were 100 transgender inmates in men’s prisons, and 25 in women’s.

Also;
A worrying trend of prisoners declaring they are women.

Article here, which documents 11 men in just one prison starting to "transition"

www.express.co.uk/news/uk/875515/transgender-inmates-male-jails-until-op-sex-offenders

I think there may be other agendas at play here, beyond discovering their "feminine" side...

Prison is hard and boring. If you've got a very long sentence why not transition to get an easier ride, access to women and separation from tough men picking in you.

Perverts get picked on by other criminals, that's usually why they're in segregation. They get into a womens prison and they're out of segregation with no fear of being bullied as they're now the big tough one.

Self id comes in they'll all do it.

No fruit if you look at the links I shared, both contain stories of penis holders in female prisons

The only 2 I've heard of is Hudson and that Scottish sex offender who keeps changing his name and generally playing silly beggars. Are there more? This beggars belief. What idiot let that policy through I wonder?

Yes there are more. Two males have been separated from each other as they were literally waving their cocks about/sucking each other off whilst wearing women’s clothing in a women’s prison.

Fair Play for women and Girls have just published a study showing that 25% of trans offenders are sexual offenders and that a trans identifying Male is 20x more likely to be locked up than women.

If this continues we will simply have male prisons and trans prisons which also house women.

Being an autogyniphile and dressing up in women’s clothing makes you more likely to be a sexual predator, not less.

They're just taking the piss really, but the worst thing is that the government (or relevant authority) is allowing them to. You'd expect criminals and rapists to push their luck but you don't expect the people in charge to just go along with it. Well, I didn't used to expect it, but I am starting to now.

Rose you raise good questions, however, these are not peculiar to trans people.

Well, I'd say some are specific to trans people

But my point is, the current system was not designed to accommodate trans people. Certainly not designed to accommodate trans people who are openly trans and have used modern equipment and science to pass much more easily.

So instead of just insisting we plunk people in prisons based on whether they have a dong or not, or insisting that that works out totally fine and simple, we need to find a new system that works or just make trans-gender prisons. I don't think anyone on this forum isn't aware that the system is not working.

I agree Rose

Even if a man has lopped his cock off, he has no place in a women’s prison

^I agree Rose

Even if a man has lopped his cock off, he has no place in a women’s prison^

Are you talking to me? (Not in a confrontational way, it's just I don't think we agree on very much.)

I think the reasoning of the poster you were responding to is off, however:

There is currently one women’s prison in Scotland, with some women held in units within men’s prisons.

from:

www.womeninprison.org.uk/research/key-facts.php

That may be what the PP wa thinking of.

That was meant for fruitcider

People should actually read the article, and also Fair Play for Women's article about the FOI.

Prison instructions for trans prisoners can be downloaded here - scroll down to '17/2016 The Care and Management of Transgender Offenders'.

The prison service go by legal sex, first and foremost. They're not allowed to ask to see a GRC but they can ask for a birth certificate (the sole remaining thing a GRC is good for). If a prisoner has a female birth cert (original or obtained via a GRC) they will be housed in the female estate unless they present an exceptional risk, in which case they may be moved to a men's prison, purely because this is where the facilities are. They will still be housed separately from men and will be accommodated in line with PSI for female prisoners. TW prisoners with a GRC are treated as female in all circumstances.

There is case law directly referenced in the prison rules linked above that says that even if a tw is in prison for attempted rape, if they have a grc and hence a bc that says 'female', they must be sent to a women's prison. The bar is very low as we have seen in various cases that have made mainstream media.

Only for trans prisoners without a GRC - i.e. those who are legally male - are decisions made on a case by case basis. And the Transgender Case Board are no fools, which is why all those self ID trans sex offenders are still treated as male prisoners in the male estate.

Changing the GRA to a self-ID process would allow all of them to be treated as female. The vast majority would have to be moved to the female estate, with only the few exceptionally dangerous ones remaining in the male estate, but housed there as female prisoners.

Surgery has nothing to do with it. You can get a GRC without having had any surgery or hormonal treatment as long as you have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and two years living as the acquired gender.

There are intact male bodied prisoners in women's prisons.

Surgery and hormones are available on the NHS, even for those in prison. The PSI also mandate that any trans identifying prisoner in either estate, with or without a GRC, must be allowed to 'live as' their preferred gender. This includes clothing, cosmetics, binders etc.

YANBU OP, male prisoners do not belong in the female estate.

Some posters may be interested to know that the consultation on changing the GRA to allow self-ID is due to open in a few weeks.

There is a petition here to ask the government to properly consult with women as this did not happen during the trans equality inquiry which gave rise to these dangerous ideas.

How do you 'prove' whether they're genuine or not?

As with the general case of finding out if someone is genuinely trans, psychologists. Though generally it's not people faking it in everyday life, it's usually people (often children) who have gotten confused.

I'm not saying we choose to sacrifice Sabrina or Alice for the "good of the many" when we haven't even tried to change a system that never took Sabrina or Alice into account. What a fatalistic way of thinking.

I too think specialised prisons would be a good way to go. Moving people into prisons based on gender rather than sex is also too simplistic - less cruel and obtuse than "do they have a vagina?" - but there are too many gender identities to really do that. They could take it case by case, but as you said to do so would probably be time consuming. I don't know the expense. I imagine they would have to hire some form of specialist.

But of course, a fully inclusive system would be preferable than separate prisons. It's truly a complex issue - it arouses many problems.

The system needs revamping, that much is for sure. Not going back to sex segregation, not sticking with what is currently happening. A more effective solution is needed.

@rosesandflowers

As with the general case of finding out if someone is genuinely trans, psychologists.

You transphobe!

So then you'd be against people who've acquired their GRC under self-ID - i.e. no psychologist assessment, no gatekeeping - having the automatic right to enter the estate of their preferred gender? As per PencilsInSpace excellent post. That is what I think most of us are worried about right now.

In terms of money, I suspect the costs could be very, very high. Once the lobby groups get the bit between their teeth there will be court cases up the wazoo. Why is this person allowed in and not that one? Why is this case acceptable and not that one? We don't agree with the position of the psychologist you used and we have four psychologists of our own who say the person you've rejected is genuine. Plus those who want to sue for the distress caused by being housed in the 'wrong' estate (like Tara Hudson).

You say that 'a more effective solution is needed' - I agree. What I DON'T and CANNOT agree with is changing the situation in a way that disadvantages women - which is what is happening now - ahead of any actual thought about what the solution looks like.