To think rapists do not belong in women’s prisons

[Magpiesarehuge]

I know it’s already happened but seems there are other violent male prisoners hoping to move to female prisons. I’d really like to hear what female prisoners feel about this as the article claims many feel intimidated. This just seem absolutely crazy that this is happening - is there no though or concern all for the women prisoners? I just can’t get my head around this logic.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5798945/Trans-women-convicted-men-attack-vulnerable-inmates.html

"That doesn’t make sense - surely it’s just someone who doesn’t feel right or at ease in their body or with fitting into society’s expectations on how men/boys women/girls should be."

That's what I thought at first, but no. Gender stereotypes have nothing to do with it. It's just an incredibly strong conviction that you are a woman, or vice versa, with no definers applied.

Trans people often get into "girly/manly" stuff as an attempt to be viewed as the opposite gender as children. And they often look close to gender stereotypes because it limits misgendering/harassment (have you seen the video of the cis woman being told she's trans and dragged out the bathroom?)

But its not about stereotypes/expectations at all. Trans women can like football and beer and hate high heels, but they still have this unshakeable understanding that they are women.

Again roses you have that backwards. Even without anyone mentioning their 'dead name' individual with body dismorphia feel all sorts of discomfort, as that feeling is internal, a psychological issue. It needs nothing from any external source to trigger it and no real trans person would ever say that wrong pronouns are the heart of their issue!

And well done, your repeated remarks about 'passing' make you a dyed in the wool TERF - according to TRA ideology!

roses I understand where you’re coming from, but you’re under a misapprehension. Not all trans people suffer from gender dysphoria - go on twitter and say that trans people all suffer from GD and watch the abuse you see. Saying so is transphobic now.

Of course there are people with GD who have legitimate reasons for not wanting to have surgery, no arguments there. However, there are a large number who never wanted and never will want surgery because they are not dysphoric (see Mose’s post earlier in the thread). Why do they then want to be trans? I’ll let you work that one out for yourselves.

I can see that you believe you’re an ally, but your beliefs about transgender issues are all already enough to have you labelled a transphobe. This issue is spiralling and no one is able to speak up.

Also, many of the male rapists / Murderers in prison who suddenly decide they are women have never lived as a woman, never expressed to anyone that they are trans until they realise it will get them into a women’s prison. They are not the same as the people you seek to defend.

It needs nothing from any external source to trigger it and no real trans person would ever say that wrong pronouns are the heart of their issue!

It's not the heart of the issue. Something I have never said. But it can be a contributor.

Like I said, dysphoria happens without any external triggering. But misgendering can be a catalyst, if you will, or just quite simply remind someone. If you're wearing your binder, late to work, drinking a last minute coffee, I don't think the fact that you don't have a penis will be present in your mind until someone says "she."

Misgendering can be difficult, awkward, uncomfortable or triggering for trans people so we should try and avoid it. It also is not the entirety, the heart of or the focus of being trans.

I did mention (I think) at some point that not all trans people are necessarily dysphoric? Or did I not? Idk. But thank you for speaking to me respectfully/kindly - a rarity on these forums.

I'm not naive enough to believe that people won't use being trans to their own advantage. People will use anything. On the other hand, I'm wary of insisting all rapists - or otherwise - should be locked up according to genitalia. Firstly, when people are using female pronouns, a female name and "look like" a woman, I can imagine the problems that would cause in a male prison. Vice versa it would be difficult too. It sounds like the plot to a porno.

Secondly, it perpetuates the myth trans person = good person.

Surely these people had a psych evaluation before transferral?

When "won't use being trans to their own advantage" I meant that criminals are likely to pretend in order to be transferred.

They are not kept in isolation;

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2525441/Transgender-murderer-Paris-Green-moved-womens-prison-sex-inmates.html

I feel terribly sad for any person who hates their body however that does not equate to pretending the person is correct to hate their body and changing the law to require everyone to pretend.

My anorexic aunt is not fat and weight watchers should be allowed to exclude her no matter how much she may be desperate to join.

A man who says he's sure he's a woman is not a woman and he should not be in a women's prison, refuge, club, award scheme no matter how much he wants to join.

The argument that being trans makes a person very very unhappy with their body is not a reason for the law to tell us all we have to start pretending something untrue.

This recently; in female prison.

These two were literally waving their cocks around and being intimate in a women’s prison until they were separated (one is still in the women’s prison)

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/transgender-killers-kept-apart-after-12493525.amp

The argument that being trans makes a person very very unhappy with their body is not a reason for the law to tell us all we have to start pretending something untrue.

How do you explain that trans people exist and have existed in every continent, probably every country, for over 2000 years? Do you think every psychologist, neuroscientist, doctor and psychiatrist backing them is wrong?

Gender is an exceedingly complicated social construct and, like most social constructs, was made very crudely in its original days. We have to take into account the whole population, instead of just dismissing their very valid experience of gender as untrue.

But more importantly - how on a practical scale do you want genitalia-sorted prisons to run? I just don't think that system will work.

Prisons have always been sex-segregated. All anyone is insisting is that they return to being sex segregated

I think they need to have a trans-gender prison, then this wouldn't be an issue. Normal 'transgender' people just get on with their lives, its these activists (mostly male-female from what I can gather) who have the issues and are probably the most likely to be put in prison. This is going to sound horrible to men but... if they want to be females, they need to stop acting in a controlling masculine way.

"check my cisprivilege" hahahahahha anyone who says that 'cis' crap to me automatically will lose my respect.

I think they need to have a trans-gender prison, then this wouldn't be an issue.

That could definitely work out better. Ideally they'd be in the same system but I don't see how you'd do it - I think this is honestly the most sensible idea, even if it's only a temporary measure until a fully inclusive idea could be found.

Prisons have always been sex-segregated. All anyone is insisting is that they return to being sex segregated

So ... this is the way we've always done it, so however impractical lets carry on?

How do you explain that trans people exist and have existed in every continent, probably every country, for over 2000 years?
No transperson has ever changed sex. Never have and never will because sex and gender are different things. We all know trans people exist and have existed but we should not be expected to collude in a lie of their own making.

So ... this is the way we've always done it, so however impractical lets carry on?

In what way is it impractical. It's quite simple actually.

I'm afraid that anyone who believes TIMs should and can be included in women's prisons is seriously underestimating the danger in which this places the women inmates.

Prisons are not well staffed in the first place and the notion that dangerous inmates are 'kept a close eye on' is laughable. If self-id comes into law, the likes of Ian Huntley can and will be placed with women in a women's prison. These men are sex offenders - which bit of that is erased by 'now claims he's a woman'?

But more importantly - how on a practical scale do you want genitalia-sorted prisons to run? I just don't think that system will work.

That's the system we currently have, and it works very well. Why do we need to change it? Transpeople can be managed in the appropriate estates for their biological sex, unless they have had gender reassignment surgery, like they do currently.

How do you explain that trans people exist and have existed in every continent, probably every country, for over 2000 years? Do you think every psychologist, neuroscientist, doctor and psychiatrist backing them is wrong?

Eh? I never said trans people don't exist. I absolutely 100% believe there are men who believe they are women and are distressed that their biology is male.

Them believing really and truly that they are women does not change reality. They are men, XY chromosomes and all that goes with it. The law is an ass if it tries to get us to pretend otherwise and will result in damaging mistakes like in prisons now.

I don't mind one jot if such men hack their bodies and wear stereotypically female clothing, hair and makeup. In fact, apart from damage to bodies, I'm all for gender nonconformity.

It doesn't mean a rapist gets to be in a women's prison.

It is not hard to segregate based on sex. We've been doing it for centuries.

In what way is it impractical. It's quite simple actually.

Hugely! Good grief!

Let's say Tom was a drink driver and is in prison for the next two years. Tom can't afford a full surgery. From female to male is essentially double or more the amount of male to female. He is tall, muscled, prominent Adam's Apple, the whole package - except he has a vagina. So, Tom goes to a woman's prison. They can't reverse the effects of the hormones, so Tom looks how he looks. Is the government going to fund his surgery so he can transfer? If Tom takes consistent hormones, will they supply them? Is his binder wearing out? Will they provide a new one for him?

Women who now have a phobia of men are expected to shower and sleep in the same room as Tom. Funnily enough, the thought "he has a vagina" doesn't comfort them. The prison now has to try and fund new bed/bathrooms for Tom, but now some other prisoners are complaining that he gets private facilities. Some might begin saying they are trans to use private rooms.

Then we have - I don't know, Sabrina. Sabrina has a penis but has been using female pronouns since she was four. She looks like a conventionally attractive woman. As a trans woman she has is highly likely to be sexually harassed. This only becomes higher in a prison. How do you ensure nothing happens to Sabrina in a male prison?

Sabrina hates the idea of male pronouns and her birth name. Some prison wardens think it would make her safer, as would making an effort to look "like a man". Sabrina knows this would make her extremely dysphoric, and they don't want to risk that as Sabrina has anxiety and depression and a history of attempted suicide. However, she is very much at risk in the prison, as well as being isolated and seen as an easy target.

Sabrina has a blood condition which makes surgery unsafe, so there is no hope of transfer for her. Now she has to choose between her mental health and her safety, possibly for a very long period of time.

I don't know why I did this in weird examples of two make believe people, but you get the gist. It's super complicated.

No one who has used their penis to rape women or children belongs in a women's prison. I don't give a flying fuck how they identify.

Yeah, rose those are make believe examples, just like you say.

The actual real life examples are not borderline, not complicated and yet a big old mistake was made. Let's fix the actual problems that are happening today, affecting vulnerable people today.

How would you fix things so those rapists were not in the women's estate? How would you set the rules? How would you protect the women?

I'd gleefully slowly and very very very painfully cut the cocks off every disgusting rapist and predator.
However that still doesn't make them a women.

The actual real life examples are not borderline, not complicated and yet a big old mistake was made. Let's fix the actual problems that are happening today, affecting vulnerable people today.

They might be make believe people, but the issues are very real.
Are prisons going to fund separate rooms? How? Isn't that going to cause discord in the prisons? On the alternative, how do you protect vulnerable trans women otherwise? What about communal spaces where they might not always be watched? Not to mention women in a women's prison who may be very upset or point blank terrified at having to share rooms where they sleep and bath in with a trans man. Are the government going to fund surgery, binders etc.? Isn't that unfair to normal trans people who have to pay/go on a waiting list, that the criminals get it given to them? What about long term sentences? Are people going to choose between mental health/safety for a long period of time? Will it be enforced in the prison that correct pronouns/names have to be used? Doesn't that have the potential to cause fights? Alternately, the other way round isolates the prisoner. Prisoners may be viewed as weaker/dangerous depending on which sex they appear by both wardens and other prisoners. How do you protect trans prisoners from transphobic abuse and harassment inside a prison?
The list goes on and on.

Obviously I recognise that just plunking people into prisons without consideration, insight or even a psych evaluation causes problems. But we can't pretend this current system will work for trans people, because it clearly won't, and that will have repercussions for both trans prisoners and other inmates.

But an unshskeable understanding they are a woman is still a man who just thinks he is a woman. There is no way of proving this - yet.

So should women who are violent / rape other women be sent to male prisons?