I’m putting this out there. High heels.

[Undercoverbanana]

I think they are ugly and make women/girls look ridiculous. AIBU?

So if somebody is obese, wears unflattering clothes but shaves their legs, are you going to think that they care about their appearance more than somebody obese who wears unflattering clothes and doesn't shave their legs?

If they are obese then that would suggest to me that the horse has already bolted in terms of them caring about their appearance unless their are medical reasons for their obesity

^ there

RoseWhiteTips, what do you do when you see an unshaven woman IRL?

Rose is a GF on many threads, I really don't think you should rest your case just yet Bertrand.

Apparently high heels used to be worn by men.... History of high heeled shoes

I think that's more Bias Confirmed than any sort of case being made. Or rested.

When I see a female film star on the red carpet with a sleeveless gown and hairy armpits (or on film playing a glamorous 20-something, or a model on the catwalk), and there's no comment on it in the media, then I'll believe no-one cares.

An effort for YOURSELF.

Bertrand?

DD watching some bs challenge video on youtube.
Bloke: spend a day dressed as the opposite sex.
Bloke(horrified): what? Walk around a whole day in HEELS? Pass.

Funny how he equated dressed as a woman with heels(only). Nope no social bias at all.

I agree heels are ridiculous and unhealthy

Rose, what if someone cares about their appearance and thinks they look better and more natural with hairy legs? What if someone actually doesn't care about their appearance, appearance is a pretty shallow and meaningless thing after all?

Personally,I can't wear them (dodgy joints and bad feet). Anything over 2 inches is out for me. But I think they can look good on a woman,as long as she can walk properly in them. Do other MNers know what I mean about that awful bent-at-the-knees walk that some women do,in heels that are obviously too high for them? I seem to see it more and more frequently lately,and it really is most unattractive.

“If they are obese then that would suggest to me that the horse has already bolted in terms of them caring about their appearance”

Really? Really ? Well, in terms of a certain dictat about appearance maybe. And many, many larger women take a great deal of care about their appearance!

Well, in terms of a certain dictat about appearance maybe

Yes, the one that says you are healthier with a BMI betwen 18.5 and 25.

it’s a useful identifier for idiots who have sold out to the patriarchy!

Hate hate hate this.
Not only can you find perfectly comfortable heels, but some women just like them. That's fine. And for some, they're exactly the opposite of what you think - they're a symbol of reclamation of the femininity they were told to hate. I just read a poem from one of my favourite poetry blogs on the exact subject - meganspoetry.tumblr.com/post/174535968222/they-told-us-women-couldnt-be-astrophysicists - which probably sums it up better (and more eloquently) than I ever could.

It's narrow-minded and controlling, if not directly harmful. It perpetuates the myth that femininity = weakness.

I totally agree Roses.
I admit I love some of my high-heeled shoes. DH has been known to buy me some, but he buys them because he knows I will like them, not because he's subconsciously doing his bit to enforce the patriarchy!
The point is, I don't have to wear high-heels or anything else for that matter. Of course I realise some female clothing is more restrictive or sexualised than other clothing, but it's also a form of self-expression at a given time or occasion. You can adapt your clothes / shoes to suit your mood. There is no need whatsoever to have a victim complex about wearing heels, unless you're forced to do so in a regular basis against your will.

Yes I did hear about the case where a woman was sent home for not wearing heels at work. I also accept that flat shoes would look strange at a more formal event or evening out. However, there is a huge difference between a 1-2 inch heel (even if it a stiletto style) and a 4 inch. There are chunkier style heels or wedges too which are no less comfortable than flats most of the time.
If a woman is being told to wear a 4 inch heel for work every day in an office, I agree that could hurt or damage your feet, but not a small heel.

Yes, the one that says you are healthier with a BMI betwen 18.5 and 25.

But the post is about appearance not health.

Any poster that claims heels are not the expected footwear for formal occasions for women need only look at the recent cases I mentioned to realise that it is generally expected.

It is expected. I'd be stupid to deny that. But the patriarchy wasn't made to allow women to win. If women avoided all that was expected of them ... well, I don't think you could tbh. It's impossible.

Much better for women to actively try and dispel the pernicious mindsets and institutions misogyny has created than attempt to "beat the system" by not doing or wearing things they like or enioy.

Feminism can't be about a new set of rules made to conflict the patriarchy. Not only is it just binding women in a different way, you can't do the opposite of something that's made to be impossible to achieve - e.g. the ideal woman. Insisting women have to wear high heels is shitty, sexist and should be challenged. Saying they are unfeminist because they do shows a remarkable lack of insight, understanding and actual want for change.

But some women do to enjoy or like wearing heels and yet it is expected of them.

I'll just copy and paste a direct quote from my earlier comment to you

Insisting women have to wear high heels is shitty, sexist and should be challenged.

I'm not saying that there isn't pressure. I'm saying there's constant and conflicting pressures on women about everything. It's impossible to go against every expectation and ridiculous and divisive to brand women as unfeminist because of it.

To me, it usually reeks of internalised misogyny. "See, she's supporting the patriarchy because she plays into this stereotype!! Unlike me who's totally unlike other girls and a feminist QUEEN! #maletears"

TSSDN, that's the interesting issue. I am just through the menopause (very late 56) and I don't want a boyfriend (not at the moment anyway) and i haven't bothered to shave since our last holiday and then only because of convention. I probably will end up doing it because of everyone around me - we will be away as a group of 9 and around other people but it's by no means a straight forward decision for me and I still haven't decided. The silky fur of the hair on my lower legs is like stroking a rather nice cat but it's not conventional in our society but then so what.

I certainly don't feel any need to make some kind of statement that I care about my apperance and make an effort. In fact I regard thas a dubious moral principle. If people have spare time for that they would be better off washing the feet of the poor than looking in mirrors. I appreciate for those in sexual relationships different issues apply or for those trying to get on at work (I work for myself and always have more than enough work coming in - most of it done by email or phone).