I’m putting this out there. High heels.

[Undercoverbanana]

I think they are ugly and make women/girls look ridiculous. AIBU?

I shave because it makes me look more feminine, not pre-pubescent . I like to look feminine and I like my man to look masculine so I really wish there wasn't a trend for shaving chest hair. I enjoy looking feminine and am so glad I'm not a man with their hugely restricted clothes choices (to comply with societal norms).

Doc Martens shredded my feet as do ballet flats. Some heels do too but I don't wear them. I choose heels that are comfortable. I don't have a problem with the height as long as there's room around the toes and the shoe doesn't drop off the back of my foot (so mules and sandals can often be problematic). I found I had more leg problems with ballet flats, presumably because there's no cushioning at the heel or ball of the foot.

I have very muscly legs but also very short legs and heels just transform my look from dumpy to elegant. I find that more attractive and when I'm going out for the night I want to look my best, just as many men do.

I still think high heels should be actually banned in the workplace. Anything over about 2 to 3 inches should be out.

I don't particularly care what other people wear but I have to admit that super super high heels where you can see the foot is contorted into a really odd shape turn my stomach a bit. Not because they look ugly but because the shape of the foot makes me feel weird!

It's pretty amazing that some women don't realise that it's not as simple as 'wear what you want'. Of course you can wear what you want, but your 'wants' have been created by the society you've grown up in. If society had evolved to think that women looked attractive with shaved heads, that's probably what you'd want. It's impossible to have free choice, uninfluenced by society's expectations. Even if you rebel and wear totally 'unfeminine' clothes, that's still a reaction to fashion.

They look silly if the wearer can’t walk normally in them (me).

So many posters denying the existence of social pressures on girls and women to remove body hair and wear certain clothing, eg heels.

If our choices were freely made, far more women wouldn’t remove body hair or wear heels, and far more men would.

There is nothing innate that makes hair ‘masculine’ and smooth skin ‘feminine’

Those are societal norms

I shave because it makes me look more feminine

Kind of a silly comment.

Spot on, Eolian. If we weren't influenced by societal norms or trends, why don't we see more women with bustles, parasols, bound feet, stetsons or flares in Britain in 2018?

Pointing this out is not criticising women. It's criticising the externally imposed constraints on women.

This. A hundred times this.

Yes. Any criticism needs to be focused on the society not the person ‘fitting in’ to it

Sometimes they look nice but I can’t walk in them so only wear kitten heels!

They look fine, can look lovely even - but they’re not for me!

I have just returned from a trip abroad where I had to attend glamorous events everyday that I felt I needed to wear heels for - and I really resented it. I might have to rebel in future! My back hurts, my feet hurt, I have a gash on one knee where I tripped over in one pair of heels 😲 They’re just so impractical.

I do like a nice wedge sandal. But stilettos are a nightmare.

Our intelligence levels are ill-matched to have this discussion.

Apologise for not realising that sooner.

Yes. Any criticism needs to be focused on the society not the person ‘fitting in’ to it

Mmmhmm.

Look, you know that materialism thought experiment where you imagine that aliens come and remove every human being but you? Everything is still here, exactly as it is now and, for the sake of argument, continues to be so.

What would you do/wear/want?

Would some people still wear heels? Would some people still shave their body hair off? I think they would. Shaved legs feel nice, heels and make-up can be fun.

The feminist argument about societal pressure only works at a macro level. Applying it at a micro level to individual women is problematic. I also doubt any accusations of 'selling out' or lack of intelligence have ever made any woman go, "hey, you know what, I am being influenced at a subconscious level by a media and fashion industry largely run by men for men in a million teeny tiny increments. I shall change my ways forthwith!". It's bollocks and only serves to relieve the (breathtakingly arrogant) feelings of the accuser.

What would you do/wear/want?

Braless and barefoot.

Braless and barefoot

Sleeping bra, yeti levels of body hair and barefoot here too, but yannow, people are different

There is nothing innate that makes hair ‘masculine’ and smooth skin ‘feminine’
Those are societal norms

That's incorrect. Men are almost always hairier than women. That's nothing to do with society and everything to do with biological fact.

"I also doubt any accusations of 'selling out' or lack of intelligence have ever made any woman go, "hey, you know what, I am being influenced at a subconscious level by a media and fashion industry"
No, I agree that accusations of seeking out or lack of intelligence help at all. But consciousness raising has always been an important part of feminism. Individual women realising what's going on and spreading the word to other women. There are often threads on here where women say they had a "lightbulb moment" about some aspect of societal conditioning. So I think it does operate on a micro level. The personal is political.

I shave because it makes me look more feminine

Kind of a silly comment.

Why?

I totally agree op (not read the full thread). As well as being uncomfortable and restricting movement I think they look awful. I often think how otherwise nice outfits are ruined by them. I do accept I am totally in the minority though!

There are often threads on here where women say they had a "lightbulb moment" about some aspect of societal conditioning. So I think it does operate on a micro level. The personal is political.

Sure, I'm with you. My hair levels are a conscious feminist statement. But consciousness-raising doesn't work in a combative way IMO. You forget the sisterhood aspect, you lose the argument. It's all too easy, even if you don't mean it, to devolve into or be perceived as making personal attacks.

. But consciousness-raising doesn't work in a combative way IMO. You forget the sisterhood aspect, you lose the argument.

I think the most important form of consciousness raising is with our own daughters. However aware I am, it's hard to make myself reject the norms about how women should look when I've grown up with them, so I shave and wear make-up every day.
When my 13 yo daughter raises a dismissive eyebrow at the idea that she should shave her legs or armpits or should wear make-up, I'm glad. And she doesn't have that attitude because of any concept of sisterhood or because I've indoctrinated her. It just never really occurred to her that girls should have to do stuff to their bodies that boys don't. She knows she can shave if she wants to, but I am very clearly supportive of her decision not to.

ferrier

Women are no more naturally smooth than men can naturally fly.

Adult humans are hairy. Women have thinner, softer hair than men but they still have hair.

There is nothing feminine about smooth skin beyond societal norms. The only natural state of hairlessness in humans is prepubertal

Madeline

It’s pretty clear which side of the argument are insisting on making things personal here

That's wonderful, Eolian, but it's not the context I was talking about.

I would, however, say that you've fostered a pretty safe, supportive and non-combative environment for your daughter to grow up in and allow her to make her own decisions from a secure standpoint. If you'd gone about calling shaving/heel-wearing women stupid and ridiculous you may well have had a rebel on your hands. That's my point.

Victoria Smith wrote an article (yesterday?) on Germaine, the last paragraph of which has stayed with me:

It’s a difficult thing, realising that our heroes might have been fighting not for us, but for themselves all along. Is that what we’re doing, too? How can we be sure? I don’t think we can be. We can only try, and pause, and be willing to change course when needed. Our personal legacies do not matter; what matters is not how those who come after us see us, but what their lives can be.

I guess there could be many interpretations of that, but for me, it makes me think about what exactly I as a feminist want to achieve and how best to do it. YMMV.

It’s pretty clear which side of the argument are insisting on making things personal here

Is my consciousness raised now? Is anyone's?