I’m putting this out there. High heels.

[Undercoverbanana]

I think they are ugly and make women/girls look ridiculous. AIBU?

Madeline

No idea. No idea why you beleive anyone else input into a conversation should be about you. It’s not.

“But consciousness-raising doesn't work in a combative way IMO”

Not sure if you noticed, but a couple of sentences before the bit of my post that you quoted I said “I agree that accusations of seeking out or lack of intelligence help at all”

The whole concept of high heels is utterly ridiculous- especially these ultra high ones currently in fashion. If they are so wonderful and gorgeous why aren’t men rushing to wear them.

What would you do/wear/want?

Clothing is for two things. To protect from the elements and display. If there's no-one to display to why bother? Comfort will be the top priority.

I'll still keep some elements of our culture, would still exercise and cook interesting food and consume books, music, and TV. But clothes? I don't think I'd be bothered (and I spend a lot of time on clothes but absolutely knowing it's all about the messages I send to others with my clothing).

Yanbu and i think some women think men thinks it's sexy. I have asked numerous men and every reply was "we don't care".
I think they are so bad for our feet...minions etc and posture. if i wear heels for a long period of time my back is absolute agony.

No idea. No idea why you beleive anyone else input into a conversation should be about you. It’s not.

Well, I think I was making a point about some people perceiving attacks on a society that prescribes women's looks as personal attacks, and backing it up with examples of how it got pretty personal - even when said person (you) agreed it shouldn't. Bertrand said some threads can be consciousness-raising so making the argument is still important. I then went on to say I agree, but aggression and arrogance don't raise consciousness IMO.

Then in you stomp and tell me I'm making it all about me. So...big shrug from me, really.

Not sure if you noticed, but a couple of sentences before the bit of my post that you quoted I said “I agree that accusations of seeking out or lack of intelligence help at all”

Yes, Bertrand, and then I said "Sure, I'm with you".

Madeline I’ve not once suggested that women should be to blame for societal expectations fostered upon them. I’ve said this a number of times.

I have simply said that societal norms continue to dicatate what people wear and it’s worth picking apart to discover what such fashion choices are teaching us about bodies.

The only time I’ve ‘got personal’ is when I’ve been hounded by a poster belligerently insisting that no woman or girl has ever been expected to shave their body hair off despite masses of evidence to the contrary. Yes this person clearly doesn’t have the capacity to have a conversation about the social expectations fostered on women and was rude, insulting and continually attempting to deride the conversation back to HER legs and HER partner. A clear mark of unintelligent thought.

“Yes, Bertrand, and then I said "Sure, I'm with you".”

But then went on to say ‘But consciousness-raising doesn't work in a combative way IMO. You forget the sisterhood aspect, you lose the argument. It's all too easy, even if you don't mean it, to devolve into or be perceived as making personal attacks.“

And in subsequent posts you talk about aggression and arrogance. Not sure why you’re doing that, to be honest.

Anyone that can prove to me that a pretty summer dress or bikini is in any way enhanced by a hairy armpit, hairy leg or straggly pube is going to have their work cut out. Patrichy, societal norm or whatever your earnest, it just doesn’t and I can think on many planes too but that’s my opinion. You can do whatever you like.

The Op is as entitled to think something’s ugly. But she can’t say women shouldn’t chose what they put on their feet. You don’t like heels or can’t walk in them or believe you’ll cause yourself injury by wearing them that’s up to you. I can on the other chose to wear whatever I’ve earned my money on on my feet. This is anything from roller skates to Louboutin and you’ll tear that choice out of my cold dead hand. The “patriarchy” whoever the duck that is are not in my head when I walk into LK Bennett. Until I read this thread I had no idea so many women would be so interested either.

"Anyone that can prove to me that a pretty summer dress or bikini is in any way enhanced by a hairy armpit, hairy leg or straggly pube is going to have their work cut out."
I wouldn't t even try. But I would say that there is nothing objectively better about hairless armpits or legs. It's just some thing that out society has decided looks better, and so women conform. And it is incredibly hard to not conform, as the women who have tried can testify.

The “patriarchy” whoever the duck that is are not in my head when I walk into LK Bennett.

That's just unbelievably naive. There is nothing in any of our heads that isn't at least partly a product of the society we've grown up in. Why do you think hairiness is incompatible with a summer dress? Because at some point in history, society decided hairlessness was desirable in women. And that dress-shaped garments should be worn by women, not men. If it hadn't, you wouldn't think that.

Oh the irony of countless people insisting that it’s ‘unfair’ of the OP to claim high heels are ugly and then use exactly the same word to describe normal body hair

That's just unbelievably naive..

And yet true. If that troubles or irks you, just try to remember we all have different opinions. That’s mine.

For the women that chose to wear their summer dress with hairy armpits good on them, respect my choice too with a little less sneer on sheepily following the societal norm.

And with that, I’m off to toil in my garden. I am choosing to wear a lacy Karen Milken vest, White Company harems and Stan Smith trainers got anyone that’s interested. That’s not for the neighbours benefit either

I think the move towards more hairless bodies has affected men as much as women. Most men under 30 are now expected to have hair-free chests and backs. Men have to shave their faces every day, even if it's to maintain a designer stubble. It's a universal trend. Sure women have gone further to include the pubic region, but it is all relative.

Less body hair is definitely connected to femininity and always has been as far as I can see. Just as long hair on the head and long eyelashes has been. This is not just in the minds of men and I think it's a mistake to think we always conform to male ideals. Women have to own it as well because feeling /looking "feminine" is not necessarily a negative, surely?

"For the women that chose to wear their summer dress with hairy armpits good on them, respect my choice too with a little less sneer on sheepily following the societal norm."
I do my think I'm sneering or calling anyone a sheep. But do you think that hairlessness for women (as an example) is objectively better to look at than hairiness?

Watching commonwealth games few weeks ago, almost all the men had shaved pits. It's becoming norm for blokes, too.

Bertrand* it's difficult to be objective about this subject, we only know what we like. Women are biologically a lot less hairy than men, if we all started sprouting back hair and beards I'm sure even the staunchest of feminists would pick up a razor. Would that be because we are bowing to societal norms and are worried of what other people think? or would it be just that we don't want a beard? Genuine question.

TSS, currently cogitating whether to shave my wonderful hair/fur off for the family summer holiday actually. It's warm cute soft to touch and I know perfectly well it's unusual so might well just get rid of it for that week I suppose for the sake others or should I just leave it and why should I have to be bothered to be thinking about it at all?

might have been mentioned - but it was horrible to see poor meghan lumbering up the steps at windsor due to awful shoes. Pointed toes, giant heels and not visible most of the time anyway as she had a floor length dress.How she didnt end up on her arse is beyond me and it looked so painful.

also sad to see her at the engagement photos, picking her way on slippery pavements in her staggerers while Harry walks along freely.

elegant shoes with a one inch heel are not available to buy, but surely she could have had some made?

Xenia no, you shouldn't have to be bothered at all. I guarantee nobody will care or say a word, or even notice!

"I guarantee nobody will care or say a word, or even notice!"

Can you? I can't.

Xenia people who mind don't matter and people who matter don't mind.
Do what you want to do.

I wonder why it seems so important to so many women what other women look like? I see it often both online and IRL, that women take this sort of stuff really personally and get genuinely angry about the right clothes, or the correct hair/lack thereof.
Think of all the important stuff we could sort out if we stopped caring what other women wear, if they ironed it first, or their shaving habits.

Can you? I can't

I can say with some degree of certainty that nobody is going to give a flying fuck.