Well, it’s happened... the trans activists have waded into the 8th amendment issue in Ireland

[AngeloMysterioso]

And are apparently pushing for the language in the repeal legislation to be “gender neutral”.

Quote from the article-

“Despite what some may believe, men can become pregnant too. There are tens of thousands of transgender men and non-binary people in Ireland who can conceive, and when speaking about reproductive healthcare, we must always be mindful of that.

“It’s imperative that newly written legislation uses inclusive language. By including this, trans men and non binary people will not hit legal barriers should they need to receive an abortion. By using the term pregnant people in new legislation, as well as protecting women, we are also protecting and respecting all gender identities should a crisis pregnancy occur.”

So. That’s nice. Thousands upon thousands of women have suffered, many have died, because of bullshit like the 8th amendment. And after fighting so hard for so fucking long and finally winning the right to bodily autonomy and reproductive rights, if the TAs get their way, we get to be referred to as pregnant people

I’m a bit of a TERF at the best of times but this is beyond fucking insulting. Savita Halappanavar wasn’t a pregnant person. Michelle Harte wasn’t a pregnant person. Sheila Hodges wasn’t a pregnant person.

If the TDs capitulate and let this happen I will be really pissed off.

I've been around for years. I recognise aariwa and dragon but not you. Hmm.

My posting history here is available to see

Out of interest, how many posts before you're allowed an opinion?

104

I know the acronym TERF and the other words are quite non-jargony.

The others are nonsense terms I ignore but have of course noticed when reading threads. HTH

Riiight 😂

doom

Ooo hoo hoo. Bring it!

You do hate women. Because you think we don’t deserve the right to call ourselves women and talk about our biology by name.

That’s what the fucking patriarchy have been doing for hundreds of years. Better not talk about women’s bits and bodily functions because we might upset someone. Fuck that.

The trans agaenda is so hateful of women and preserving women’s spaces, rights and protections that anyone who agrees or follows it is a woman hater. They just might not have admitted it to themselves yet.

doomraider

Oh you are on another thread taking the piss out of the need for 11 year old girls to have safe spaces from boys arnt you?

I agree with Stopfuckings we need to just treat these views as these idiots in their own echo chamber. It’s clearly nonsense and in RL probably won’t effect any woman accessing services.

Surely ‘woman’ should still be used but a further piece of information in the law clarifying that this would apply to anyone who is able to become pregnant in the same way as a woman, but not necessarily ‘identifying’ themselves as a ‘woman’— rather than trying to write the word ‘woman’ out of the law?

Wouldn’t this avoid writing women out of future laws as a PP said? Whilst also keeping the shouty people happy??

I wish people, media, politicians would stop giving these nut job “men can get pregnant too” fuckers a platform.

A tiny minority of nasty people with nasty aims who’s nasty little views get pushed by silly do-gooders as being mainstream.

Heroo Your post x 1000

Here's why it's important to retain the word "woman" in legislation.

My mum (now sadly dead, but born in the 2920s, so this sort of debate has been around for a long time) used to joke "if men got pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.". If you think that's implausible, think for a moment about the thousands upon thousands of pages written by religious men in defence of the concept of "a just war". Think of the conservatives in the US who are anti abortion and pro death penalty.

Anti abortion campaigners always frame their arguments in terms of the life of the foetus (and some are undoubtedly utterly sincere in this), but underneath that rhetoric is a misogynist streak a mile wide. Think of the photo of Trump signing away health programmes in developing countries if they do much as mention where to get an abortion. A man whose own sexual ethics, lest we forget, appear not to exist . Surrounded by men - Pence, Bannon, etc. It's like a still from the "Handmaid's Tale."

doom
Has anyone ever called you something you don’t want to be called?

Yes many times. Vile and degrading names by both my mother and my elder brother. Names from my brother that indicated I hadn’t hit puberty up until my late teens. He also created an acronym. This name calling was intended to demean and was similar to misgendering. He also encouraged his friends to do the same.

I know exactly how it feels to be misnamed, which is why it is so important to me to be named appropriately.

Why is it so difficult to understand that it is incredibly important to me not to be called acis woman or a pregnant person?

Laws aren't to make people feel better. Sorry to hark back a page or 3. But that is what the current TRAs are fighting for. To have ideology of gender replace the biology of sex, so they can feel better, reduce their dysmorphia.

It doesn't matter how often poster come and say "Ooh! You all want to prevent trans people from getting whatever" we don't. We just don't want to be forced to give up something we value in order for anyone else to feel better. That isn't how it has to be. There can be laws to protect trans people specifically that do not take away from any other rights.

However, as all the outrage and anti-trans sentiment on MN Not anti trans - anti TRA. This deliberate obfuscation is used far too often and makes the poster sound ridiculous. In the face of so many posters repeating Not anti trans - anti TRA I have to wonder why you cling to it. If your pov has merit you won't need to lie to make it stand up to scrutiny!

while you're ignored in the real world proves, our opinions are pretty valueless our opinions ? I thought you said you were not trans/TRA?

But if you think your opinions re being ignored think how I feel? I am female, a woman. I am being told on line and in real life (yes, really it happens out here too) that I am being mean and nasty and should be ashamed of myself for saying that I am female and a transwoman is not.

My own self identity, my own feelings, my own long held beliefs about myself are being whitewashed away and I can do nothing to stop it because the current political and social trend is to be inclusive at all costs! That cost being 'whatever it is that women might think or be'.

Why don't my feelings count as much as those of any trans person?

Why don't my trans/gender bending friends think TRAs have a valid point?

Why is it only heterosexual people who are questioning me and my attitudes? (Make that young white, middle class males and a scattering of similar females)

Why is it so bad that I have a point of view that disagrees with those of the TRA movement that is by far more radical and violent that any RadFem group?

Ohmydayslove

"Oh you are on another thread taking the piss out of the need for 11 year old girls to have safe spaces from boys arnt you?"

That's about a mixed sleepover which I and many others have said is fine. What does that have to do with this?

MissSusanSays

"Bring it!"

What?

"You do hate women. Because you think we don’t deserve the right to call ourselves women and talk about our biology by name."

Did I? I wasn't aware.

Give your biology a name by all means. Name your vagina if you want. It doesn't mean I hate you or all or any women.

Do you understand that people legally male can carry babies in Ireland? Do you see why legislation will need to take this into account?

Posted too soon...

That's why we need to retain the word woman: because denial of abortion only takes place in a deeply sexist society. It's not one arbitrary "protect the innocent unborns" ban, it's part of a wider picture of seeking to control women's fertility and wider lives because we are women.

"Pregnant people/ person"

What about those who identify as other species? (Which has happened)

Surely doing something as fundamentally female as bearing children wouldn't indicate the TIF is not intact trans. Because if they were male the first thing they would want is a full hysterectomy and mastectomy surely?!

Oh, and a quick bite off to Doom. (Or maybe not - I suspect there may be quite a lot of women reading your words and reaching peak trans for the first time)

I agree with addlebrained in part

The term 'woman' should be used as "an adult female" in legislation and medicine with the focus being on the sex of an individual. Trans people etc are still the same sex the have always been; no one can change sex.

Do you understand that people legally male can carry babies in Ireland? Do you see why legislation will need to take this into account? That's the point isn't it? Those legally male people who can carry babies are biologically female. The law does not change that. Legislation does not need to be changed to take them into account, unless you think adding the word 'biologically' will make a world of difference!

That dichotomy between law and biological reality could be very dangerous for all sorts of reasons that have been outlined, detailed, argued over on many of these boards for a very long time!

What I don't understand is, if a woman chooses to live her life as a man- why would "he" want to then get pregnant, carry a child and give birth to it? Surely these are the most inherently "female" acts and therefore you'd imagine them to be something a trans man would very much want to avoid (indeed, by having operations etc to ensure their avoidance). Am I missing something here?

I think that as it is in a legal and or medical context gravida ought to do.

Obviously in the doctors office the person will be referred to as their preferred pronoun and it will be spoken about as a pregnant man/woman.

I do wish people would stop using the word feelz to deride anyones opinion on something. It's childish and feelings about something are important, otherwise we wouldn't be talking about this.

So potentially you’d all happily see some ‘women’ who have changed their sex to Male, which laws allow, possibly being blocked from accessing abortion because of a legal loophole? I think people are missing the point here. ALL female bodied people need access to abortion, some of these people will have changed to be legally Male (and as we all know everyone here is fine with that because they have nothing against trans people and think they should be offered legal protections too, just not at the expense of women) The wording of the law needs to reflect this. Or are you suggesting on the day they get an abortion they should be able to self ID back as female? That would be one way of getting around it....oh wait it’s a no to self ID too though isn’t it.

bumpowder

Crossed posts with you but totally agree with you.

Yes, agree gravida would do nicely.

Did I? I wasn't aware.

That’s the issue, isn’t it. You’re a misognist but you don’t really know it.

What do you call someone who tries to remove hard won rights from a protected group (the female sex is a protected group under the EA). Why, you call them a BIGOT.

That’s what you are. A woman hating bigot who is backwards and coming forwards. So eager to please and be on the cusp of what’s trendy that you tramp a whole group of people.

Your ideology is hateful.

What Heroo says 100%.

doom you also went in to say all those who were unsettled by mixed sleepovers were man haters and unable to raise teenagers capable of functioning by the time they hit uni.

So in my book you are wrong in that thread and wrong in this thread but you are entitled to your opinion. What you are not entitled to do is to silence women. And you will not either on here or in RL.

Not cis. Was a pregnant woman. Men can never and will never have periods and babies so they have no idea what it is like to be born a woman.

I have every sympathy with a man who feels he is in the wrong body and seeks to address that but in doing so they cannot trample on women’s rights and feelings anymore than we want to trample on theirs.

"Grand" - a footnote or subclause saying that transmembrane and non-binary people were included in the scope of the legislation would do fine. I don't think anyone objects to including them in the legislation, just not in such a way that it obscure the primary purpose of the legislation, which is that women are now allowed to control what happens to their own bodies.

No one can have their sex changed! They have gender reassignment or have their gender changed but they are unable to have an actual sex change. Therefore there isn't any point in changing legislation or medical terms because they should be based on a person's sex not how they have chosen to gender identify