Well, it’s happened... the trans activists have waded into the 8th amendment issue in Ireland

[AngeloMysterioso]

And are apparently pushing for the language in the repeal legislation to be “gender neutral”.

Quote from the article-

“Despite what some may believe, men can become pregnant too. There are tens of thousands of transgender men and non-binary people in Ireland who can conceive, and when speaking about reproductive healthcare, we must always be mindful of that.

“It’s imperative that newly written legislation uses inclusive language. By including this, trans men and non binary people will not hit legal barriers should they need to receive an abortion. By using the term pregnant people in new legislation, as well as protecting women, we are also protecting and respecting all gender identities should a crisis pregnancy occur.”

So. That’s nice. Thousands upon thousands of women have suffered, many have died, because of bullshit like the 8th amendment. And after fighting so hard for so fucking long and finally winning the right to bodily autonomy and reproductive rights, if the TAs get their way, we get to be referred to as pregnant people

I’m a bit of a TERF at the best of times but this is beyond fucking insulting. Savita Halappanavar wasn’t a pregnant person. Michelle Harte wasn’t a pregnant person. Sheila Hodges wasn’t a pregnant person.

If the TDs capitulate and let this happen I will be really pissed off.

I see no problem with a 'pregnant person'

Totally, utterly, world-gorn-mad ridiculous. And so, SO disrespectful to the thousands of WOMEN who were forced to carry unwanted babies to term, travel out of the country or even worse, suffer illegal abortions.

I have no idea about all the bullshitty terms like "gaslighting" or seahorsing or ghosting but think you're coming from the same confused (giving you the benefit of the doubt) perspective as the OP.

"Savita Halappanavar wasn’t a pregnant person. Michelle Harte wasn’t a pregnant person. Sheila Hodges wasn’t a pregnant person."

They were.

"we see it"

Shit. Are we there? The stage where 'we see you' is supposed to make a poster sound part of some enlightened group.

Anyway, you clearly won't change your mind and I doubt I will either but I would like to know, if a born woman is now legally recognised as a man, would the 'mother' definition hold true in abortion law? I can't find a legal definition of the term anyway and how is 'natal female' any different to 'pregnant person'?

It is sickening and disgusting Inion.

Why is always men and women-who-identify-as-men (taking on their gender role perfectly here) trying to dominate and dictate to women.

Once the medics get the hang of womb transplants it will be academic.

Interesting article about who/what is behind the all this:
thefederalist.com/2018/02/20/rich-white-men-institutionalizing-transgender-ideology/

I can't get my head round the psychology of it all... I'm becoming more confused as time goes on! There's tonnes of legislation which simply refers to men / males / women / females, because the sections, articles or regulations refer to that sex specifically. Why can't this piece of statute refer to women / females, especially as it is only that sex which can be physically pregnant? I'm not trying to be goady, I simply need this explained to me!!! Sorry if I have offended anyone.

Doom your attitude is why in 10 years the word woman will be completely erased. It's also completely unnecessary to pick on someone's grammar just to be an asshole. You're coming across as aggressive and arrogant. Are you a TRA? Actually are you a man?

As a woman, I don't want to be referred to as a gestater or pregnant person. Replacing the word woman erases an entire sex to keep a tiny minority happy.

To be fair in the wording of the law it should stay woman, trans men or whatever fucking label of the week is appropriate. That's inclusive and fair and most importantly not eradicating the word woman.

@Pinktails

We all already knew that rich white men were to blame, we just weren't quite sure how or why. I'm glad someone found out how!

@Missus

Because as people can legally change sex / gender someone born a woman, recognised by law as man can still have babies.

There's relatively little legislation which treats the sexes differently. Not as much as TERFs, RFs etc would like.

Where do you get the notion of "tonnes"?

Oh, and one more question which I'd really like an answer to - if you'll humour me. Have non-Irish women "waded in" to the issue or is it only trans people who wade? What's the pecking order? Which opinion is more important, an Irish trans person or a non-Irish woman's and why?

Women get to comment. If you’re a woman you can comment on and control your own biology. Simple really.

I thought calling transmen women was bigoted.

Denying women the ability to call themselves women and be referred to as women is a misogynistic control tactic.

I am fine if a pregnant trans man wants to request to us specific terms and pronouns. Why don’t women get to use their own preferred terms and pronouns?

Or do your feelings, rights and needs only count if you’re trans?

Because it has become increasingly obvious that trans activists and allies do not give a shit about women, women’s right or women’s safety.

The hatred for women is palpable.

Oh sure, its just fine for this crucial and emotional issue to be hijacked to make it all about erasing words and meanings that describe women's material, literal and physical realities, experiences and descriptions in law.

Any person who does this is a selfish fucker as far as I am concerned wherever they wade from.

It is the same as #MeToo. Women gain something at long last and then BAM, there is the misogynistic/TRA backlash.

"Are you a TRA? Actually are you a man? "

Neither but good on you for a little sexism there.

It's amazing how many times someone who doesn't agree with 'all men are bad' and anti-trans arguments is called a man or at least has their sex questioned. Why is that? Surely you can do better than think that all women agree with you and all men don't. Maybe you can't.

I would certainly be a TRA as opposed to join the frighteningly bigoted vocal minority TERFs on MN though.

"describe women's material, literal and physical realities, experiences and descriptions in law."

I don't think any of those have ever been "described" in law.

@doom, if you look at a lot of welfare or health and safety law those words are referred to due to specific requirements or needs. I don't label myself as a TERF or an RF (still unsure what an RF is), but I was simply mentioning it exists. As I said I do not mean to offend, merely question and post my opinion. I appreciate your opinion too, and giving me your answer!

If it's "people" who can get pregnant, then you're going to end up with women being written out of the law as new laws are made over time.

Surely too if a trans man gets pregnant that would be through rape, which would be because biologically they are a woman? People wouldn't be getting pregnant because of their gender - or lack of it - they'd be getting pregnant because of their biology.

When doctors operate they couldn't care less about your gender. They certainly care about biology though.

Maybe if there needs to be more appropriate terminology it should be "biological" women. Or some Latin version of that.

Nobody said "all men are bad" doom, simply that the word woman is important to us and we don't want it erased.

You're so quick to shovel out the insults just because you don't agree with what we are saying.

What I am unsure about is surely a trans man doesn't have periods? The hormones taken to transition stop them, often they will also have a hysterectomy.

If you aren't taking hormones surely you are not a trans man?

I am supportive of people who feel they are in the wrong body, and believe transitioning is the right thing for them and seek medical help for this however I don't see how you can be a trans man and then get pregnant, you either wish to identify as a man or you don't.

It's funny that they want to be referred to by their chosen gender and we get into trouble if we don't, but then like to harp back to a previous gender when it suits them!
The only "men" who can get pregnant at the ones who were born female but if we called them "she" we'd be chastised or worse!

Idiots

doom

Oh, I see. You’re a GF. Well then have my standard response to the reasoning of misogynistic fuckers.

Wibble- is what I think of you and your reasoning.

Thanks for proving my point about trans allies hating women. Much obliged.

@Missus - I'm incredibly hard to offend so don't worry about that.

I guess I can't understand just how delicate and ineffectual some people must be to think that changing 'mother' to 'pregnant person' is any kind of erosion of women or upsetting or whatever hyperbolic description they can find. However, I can easily see why 'pregnant person' covers all eventualities in law and that's what's important.

RF is the second half of TERF. Radical Feminists. The type who think the 'trans agenda' is a rich white man conspiracy.

What I genuinely don't understand is why a trans man would fall pregnant. Surely this will be an incredible trigger for their dysphoria? If they wanted to be pregnant then how can they say that they are a trans man given that pregnancy is something that can only happen to people who are biologically female, the very thing that they don't want to be

doom
Are you calling women on Mumsnet TERFs because they wish to be called pregnant women and not pregnant people?

I would certainly be a TRA as opposed to join the frighteningly bigoted vocal minority TERFs on MN though

You got posting history @doomRaider?