Well, it’s happened... the trans activists have waded into the 8th amendment issue in Ireland

[AngeloMysterioso]

And are apparently pushing for the language in the repeal legislation to be “gender neutral”.

Quote from the article-

“Despite what some may believe, men can become pregnant too. There are tens of thousands of transgender men and non-binary people in Ireland who can conceive, and when speaking about reproductive healthcare, we must always be mindful of that.

“It’s imperative that newly written legislation uses inclusive language. By including this, trans men and non binary people will not hit legal barriers should they need to receive an abortion. By using the term pregnant people in new legislation, as well as protecting women, we are also protecting and respecting all gender identities should a crisis pregnancy occur.”

So. That’s nice. Thousands upon thousands of women have suffered, many have died, because of bullshit like the 8th amendment. And after fighting so hard for so fucking long and finally winning the right to bodily autonomy and reproductive rights, if the TAs get their way, we get to be referred to as pregnant people

I’m a bit of a TERF at the best of times but this is beyond fucking insulting. Savita Halappanavar wasn’t a pregnant person. Michelle Harte wasn’t a pregnant person. Sheila Hodges wasn’t a pregnant person.

If the TDs capitulate and let this happen I will be really pissed off.

RF is the second half of TERF. Radical Feminists. The type who think the 'trans agenda' is a rich white man conspiracy.

You sound like you’re up to speed on this yet earlier

I have no idea about all the bullshitty terms like "gaslighting" or seahorsing or ghosting

Hmm.

@madvixen this is my question too.

I remember reading an article years ago before trans issues were widely known and spoken about. It was a young woman who felt she was in the wrong body and ought to be a man, at this time she wasn't receiving any treatment. She said her period was a monthly reminder of her body not being what she wished it could be. My heart broke for the writer. This is why I don't get it.

Also tens of thousands of trans people in Ireland with a population of less than 5m? Surely that's an over zealous number.

And doom you have yet to say why women/mothers, transmen and non-binary is undesirable.

It is also scary that you don't seem to understand that legislation needs to be intricately detailed and defined (ie described) to avoid creating loopholes and/or unintended consequences, or law that is simply to broad or vague to be enforcable or just.

I might be overthinking things but I feel like this is an effective way of putting women back in their place.

It’s been a painful, hard-fought battle for Irish women to be seen as more than ‘gestators’. So it feels like some people are saying “well done, you won, but we’re here to remind you are still only gestators...”

I felt the same the other day when I saw something about British girls experiencing period poverty, on Twitter. Lots of the comments weren’t expressing concern about the issue, but instead saying the language was excluding transboys who have periods and should therefore talk about menstruators and not girls.

Suddenly the message is lost, the issue is blurred, and the women and girls silenced again.

I think policing the language like this is very sinister and unnecessary, and that the long-term aim is to stop women talking altogether.

The term ‘pregnant person’ is dehumanising and refers to them purely through biological function. What someone was referring to earlier in the thread by saying ‘Savita wasn’t a pregnant person’ is not that she wasn’t pregnant (because she was, obviously, and died as a result) but that she was a women in her own right who became pregnant. See the difference?

It’s the same with how we are encouraged to think of people first and their disability or affliction second - a child with autism, rather than autistic child.

Pregnant person irks me, because you require biologically female sex organs to do it. So I am incredibly sorry if the small number of people who identify as men but have the ability to bear children and do so, thus doing what is probably the most female thing you can do (not that you aren’t a woman if you don’t do it, but it’s the exclusive ability of women) and feel maternity services language isn’t inclusive of them. Because REALLY?

It’s taken 20 years of work and women dying as a result to repeal the 8th, and now we can’t have a law which states the rights of women above that of the foetus, that allows them to be seen as more than a pregnant person, a gestator, but as an actual person?

Many Irish women had to travel to get an abortion because they fell pregnant as a consequence of rape. Not only had they suffered the trauma of the rape, but then they were driven away from their support network, alone and afraid to have the abortion invariably in secret for fear of being vilified by their community.

How can a trans Male possibly understand or empathise with that? When will a trans Male ever even experience being raped? The majority aren't even female, they are just 'identifying' as female Hello I'm Tracy with the beard and hairy chest but we have to be careful not to hurt their feelings? the world is going bonkers.

@Mummyoflittledragon

No only for this reason. Many posters have it in their user names. The OP said "I’m a bit of a TERF at the best of times". I also don't think it's an insult if that's what people truly believe. MN and it's posters are still a bit confused too. Some think it's a slur whereas others like the label for themselves.

@MissionItsPossible

I've been around for years. I recognise aariwa and dragon but not you. Hmm.

Out of interest, how many posts before you're allowed an opinion?

@MissionItsPossible

I know the acronym TERF and the other words are quite non-jargony.

The others are nonsense terms I ignore but have of course noticed when reading threads. HTH

@doom, thank you for your explanation and opinion, glad I didn't offend.

For me, however, I have been a pregnant woman, not 'person' or part of a group of 'pregnant people'. I prefer to use the group pronoun when the subject of the conversation is sex irrelevant; for instance, I was part of a group of people who went to work on a Monday. I'm neither 'delicate' or 'ineffectual', as inferred above, and do not consider myself a radical feminist, TE or otherwise; just for the record, apart from my sex, I'm not a fan of being labelled!!

transboys who have periods

Jeez, give me strength these people are nuts.

@daisychain01 many men do empathise with what women in Ireland had suffered due to the 8th. Not only women voted to repeal.

Also men can be raped, in fact male rape and sexual assault is on the rise obviously this cant result in pregnancy as it can for women but they can be victims of rape.

Surely in terms of medical legislation the wording has to be based in reality? Non Binary is absolutely no descriptor of a human body or in any way relevant to medical services. You can't identify your way out of the medical reality of the effects our differing sexes have on our health. Someone needs to stay grounded.

Surely here they are just worried about legal implications? If you can legally change your sex to male in Ireland but still be female bodied and potentially pregnant and seeking an abortion then it’s vital that the legislation allows for that, or some wouldn’t be able to access abortion. Doesn’t seem that outrageous to me.

@unplugmefromthematrix

"And doom you have yet to say why women/mothers, transmen and non-binary is undesirable."

I haven't said it is undesirable although is that a list you're proposing? You're making less sense as you go on.

Why would you have a list when you can have a single term - 'pregnant person'.

"It is also scary that you don't seem to understand that legislation needs to be intricately detailed and defined"

Scary? Grow up. I will have no effect on the legislation. My opinion is as valueless as yours.

However, how does the UK Abortion act of 1967 change in any conceivable way if 'mother' is changed to 'pregnant person'?

I'll give you a clue, the sex or gender of the parent is never once mentioned. "The pregnancy" is the term used. @JellyBaby666 - do you find the term "the pregnancy" dehumanising.

@daisychain01

Do you think only women can be raped? Surely you aren't quite so ignorant.

"The majority aren't even female, they are just 'identifying' as female"

Depending on who you ask, 100% are only "identifying".

doom
I don’t believe in excluding trans people. I think everyone should be addressed by their chosen pronoun etc and given equal respect.

Why therefore is it ok to call me a cis woman and a pregnant person when I don’t wish to be addressed in this way?

Surely it works both ways. Can you not see the irony that the request/ demand for chosen pronouns only works in one direction?

How can a trans Male possibly understand or empathise with that?

I'm a women and can empathise with Irish women needing/wanting an abortion and with rape victims despite being neither myself. Surely being a man or trans woman/ trans man doesn't mean you can't empathise with others.

"urely it works both ways. Can you not see the irony that the request/ demand for chosen pronouns only works in one direction?"

I don't think it does on;y work one way. Has anyone (away from a goady and argumentative internet forum) ever called you something you don't want to be called? Have you been mis-labelled?

You're still missing the point that Grandmaswagsbag made far better than I've been trying to do.

"If you can legally change your sex to male in Ireland but still be female bodied and potentially pregnant and seeking an abortion then it’s vital that the legislation allows for that, or some wouldn’t be able to access abortion."

If you want to be called a pregnant woman then that's fine but the law needs to be worded carefully and feelings are immaterial.

Whether you like it or not, legally recognised men can become pregnant. Wouldn't the law written as you wish exclude them from abortion?

Doom if you think your opinion is so valueless, why do you keep on sharing it?

I think it's important to remember that TRA's don't speak for all trans people. My ex-FIL is transitioning and is so fucked off with TRA's and their attempt to trample over womens rights and vocabulary. They can see the damage it's doing for the rest of the trans community and knows that the acceptance the community has previously had is in danger of disappearing completely thanks to those arseholes.

I also find it extremely odd that a group of people who desperately want to change sex are attempting to erase the very sex they claim to want to be! Surely if we're all just 'people' and should never be referred to as male/female it kind of makes the whole point of trasitioning pointless?

doom

Gosh, you thought someone wanted your woman hating opinion and half baked reasoning. Bless.

I think it has merit insomuch as an echo chamber benefits no one.

However, as all the outrage and anti-trans sentiment on MN while you're ignored in the real world proves, our opinions are pretty valueless. It can be interesting to debate but those who have the power to make change on a large scale don't bother wasting time posting on a parenting forum.

Do you think your opinion has value or can make a change?

@doom No I don’t. Because it is a pregnancy!

If the legislation needs to protect the rights of trans men/non binary people then I have no issue with that at all. The law isn’t one sentence long! Just include women AND transgender AND non binary. Why erase the woman-ness of the bloody law in the first place?

@MissSusanSays

You think I hate women because of ...?

You know that words aren't literal violence, right? You know that disagreeing with you (and I guess you're a woman) doesn't mean someone hates women. People may dislike you and your opinions for many reasons but they're more than likely nothing to do with your gender.

I feel like this is an effective way of putting women back in their place

I know what you mean: all those years of male pronouns being the default term in all sorts of legislation etc, and now the very word "woman" seems to be being removed from anything official for fear of offending trans people.

It's like someone's discovered another way of airbrushing us out of written history.

@Jelly

"Why erase the woman-ness of the bloody law in the first place?"

Being succinct is a wonderful quality when writing important documents. I write policies not laws but would always choose one term over a list.

The law isn't about protecting or erasing. It's about ending a pregnancy. So, you think the way to get around Grandmaswagsbag's point is a list? How about when terminology changes? "Pregnant person" seems pretty immutable to me. However, man / woman has already changed in the last few years.

I really think the less oxygen these idiots get the better

I only hear about these outrageous claims on MN . In RL rarely