Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Well, it’s happened... the trans activists have waded into the 8th amendment issue in Ireland

670 replies

AngeloMysterioso · 01/06/2018 00:34

And are apparently pushing for the language in the repeal legislation to be “gender neutral”.

Quote from the article-

“Despite what some may believe, men can become pregnant too. There are tens of thousands of transgender men and non-binary people in Ireland who can conceive, and when speaking about reproductive healthcare, we must always be mindful of that.

“It’s imperative that newly written legislation uses inclusive language. By including this, trans men and non binary people will not hit legal barriers should they need to receive an abortion. By using the term pregnant people in new legislation, as well as protecting women, we are also protecting and respecting all gender identities should a crisis pregnancy occur.”

So. That’s nice. Thousands upon thousands of women have suffered, many have died, because of bullshit like the 8th amendment. And after fighting so hard for so fucking long and finally winning the right to bodily autonomy and reproductive rights, if the TAs get their way, we get to be referred to as pregnant people

I’m a bit of a TERF at the best of times but this is beyond fucking insulting. Savita Halappanavar wasn’t a pregnant person. Michelle Harte wasn’t a pregnant person. Sheila Hodges wasn’t a pregnant person.

If the TDs capitulate and let this happen I will be really pissed off.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
SkinniesAreOver · 02/06/2018 11:08

This is why they shout us down and get heard.

Ereshkigal · 02/06/2018 11:09

I've always meant to read that. Good point. Yes, they assuredly do have the power, despite their weaponised victimhood and claims to the contrary,

Grandmaswagsbag · 02/06/2018 11:10

I think someone who identifies as male and is legally recognised as male can have sex with a man and become pregnant, yes.

Ereshkigal · 02/06/2018 11:11

Yes of course that can happen as a material thing that a woman claiming to be a man can get pregnant. Why is that, exactly?

MiggeldyHiggins · 02/06/2018 11:12

i think someone who identifies as male and is legally recognised as male can have sex with a man and become pregnant, yes

but they are still a woman, evidenced by the fact they had sex with their womanly vagina and got pregnant in the female uterus with those girly eggs.

Grandmaswagsbag · 02/06/2018 11:12

The old legislation - the one that makes abortion illegal - refers to "women". So surely, if it was/is 100% enforced to the wording, transmen who are legally male have been able to have abortions. Men having abortions is/was not illegal.

It looks like that could be the case actually!

Jiggy16 · 02/06/2018 11:13

I have fought so hard through heartbreak and am so proud to be a 'mother' and a pregnant women' - how dare anyone try to take that off me. I am Irish. Surely to legally be a man it would be impossible to fall pregnant?

Lweji · 02/06/2018 11:14

@Lweji how is pregnancy and abortion not strictly a woman's issue?! We know women are human, thanks, it's just that pregnancy and abortion ARE strictly a woman's issue. Go and tell that to the child brides and FGM sufferers in the developing world ffs. I'm sure they'd love to hear about how they can be nonbinary and identify out of their oppression.

Because calling strictly a woman's issue takes men out of the equation. Men who vote on these issues. And men who are in relationships with these women.

Considering these issues as human rights issues, though, will establish equivalents in other aspects of body autonomy, and all sorts of freedoms.

Isn't it what feminism is about? Equal rights and opportunities?

TerfsUp · 02/06/2018 11:14

I think someone who identifies as male and is legally recognised as male can have sex with a man and become pregnant, yes.

Yes, because that person is female.

TerfsUp · 02/06/2018 11:15

Surely to legally be a man it would be impossible to fall pregnant?

Nope. You can legally change your gender but you cannot change your sex.

Grandmaswagsbag · 02/06/2018 11:16

Miggldy the question is what are they legally recognised as? GRA affords you legal protections of your chosen sex. Legally you can be male or female, biologically also, but the law now allows you to mix and match. It’s done and dusted I’m afraid, so it will have some affect (admittedly quite rarely) on new laws that are concerned primarily with people from one biological sex such as this.

MiggeldyHiggins · 02/06/2018 11:16

Because calling strictly a woman's issue takes men out of the equation

yes, that would be good. Then we wouldn't even be having this conversation

Jiggy16 · 02/06/2018 11:17

Yes so legally your still female, so ?

pachyderm · 02/06/2018 11:18

@Grandmaswagbag I'm going to repeat the question I asked earlier since you're aware of how this debate is playing out on social media.

Why is it only legislation around women's health they're demanding be gender-neutral? Why not the HSE literature on prostate and testicular cancer? Why no lobbying of religious institutions to demand that trans men be considered for the priesthood? Why are there no men fawning over "brave and stunning" trans men assuring them that they'll alter the language they've used their whole lives to include them, and apologising when they don't?

You need to think about this, you really do.

Ereshkigal · 02/06/2018 11:19

Isn't it what feminism is about? Equal rights and opportunities?

There are various branches of feminism. You're referring to feminism which prioritises individual actions and choices. To me feminism is a collective movement for the liberation of women from sex based oppression. There can't be "equal rights and opportunities" in a structurally unfair system.

Grandmaswagsbag · 02/06/2018 11:19

You can legally change your gender but you cannot change your sex.

Yes I’m aware of that but what does the law actually state? The law actually confuses sex and gender so would someone who was legally a man still be considered female for the purpose of applying certain laws that only apply to females? In which case what would be the point of GRA in the first place?

Lweji · 02/06/2018 11:20

Because calling strictly a woman's issue takes men out of the equation

yes, that would be good. Then we wouldn't even be having this conversation

Would it? The men who also vote for or against abortion laws? The men who still have greater power in society?
Do you want to enlist men, or alienate them?

Mummyoflittledragon · 02/06/2018 11:20

Grandmaswagbag
Yes I agree someone who is legally recognised as male could become pregnant. Also interestingly as Beyondsceptical has pointed out as they are legally male, the current law doesn’t affect them. Therefore repealing the law will not affect them as it only refers to women and thus making the term pregnant person unnecessary.

MiggeldyHiggins · 02/06/2018 11:21

Right now I want them to fuck off trying to muscle into the work women have been doing for 50 years and use it for their own TRA agenda.

Lweji · 02/06/2018 11:21

You're referring to feminism which prioritises individual actions and choices. To me feminism is a collective movement for the liberation of women from sex based oppression. There can't be "equal rights and opportunities" in a structurally unfair system.

You need to explain that further. How is "equal rights and opportunities" prioritising individual actions and choices? How is it not also about the system?

Lweji · 02/06/2018 11:22

Right now I want them to fuck off trying to muscle into the work women have been doing for 50 years and use it for their own TRA agenda.

Are you suggesting that men as a whole have a TRA agenda? They would be bemused.

Ereshkigal · 02/06/2018 11:23

It’s done and dusted I’m afraid, so it will have some affect (admittedly quite rarely) on new laws that are concerned primarily with people from one biological sex such as this.

"Pregnant women and transgender people". What is the issue?

pachyderm · 02/06/2018 11:23

@Lweji feminism is about the liberation of women from patriarchy. One of the central tenets is control over our reproductive systems as it was the means of enslaving us for millennia. I don't use the term "bodily autonomy" these days as it's been co-opted by TRAs to water down the politics of the anti-eighth amendment campaign. I prefer to be more specific.

Ereshkigal · 02/06/2018 11:23

Are you suggesting that men as a whole have a TRA agenda? They would be bemused.

A lot of left wing men do.

Grandmaswagsbag · 02/06/2018 11:23

Actually pachyderm I’m not on Twitter, I have rarely seen any reference to TRAs outside of MN, so I’m not aware of debates on SM. There’s are issues with the proposed law update in the U.K. which I think absolutely need discussing, but this isn’t an issue I feel needs to be jumped on as TRAs vs. Women. All I can see is that people want to make sure transmen are included in this legislation that could potentially affect them.