Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Well, it’s happened... the trans activists have waded into the 8th amendment issue in Ireland

670 replies

AngeloMysterioso · 01/06/2018 00:34

And are apparently pushing for the language in the repeal legislation to be “gender neutral”.

Quote from the article-

“Despite what some may believe, men can become pregnant too. There are tens of thousands of transgender men and non-binary people in Ireland who can conceive, and when speaking about reproductive healthcare, we must always be mindful of that.

“It’s imperative that newly written legislation uses inclusive language. By including this, trans men and non binary people will not hit legal barriers should they need to receive an abortion. By using the term pregnant people in new legislation, as well as protecting women, we are also protecting and respecting all gender identities should a crisis pregnancy occur.”

So. That’s nice. Thousands upon thousands of women have suffered, many have died, because of bullshit like the 8th amendment. And after fighting so hard for so fucking long and finally winning the right to bodily autonomy and reproductive rights, if the TAs get their way, we get to be referred to as pregnant people

I’m a bit of a TERF at the best of times but this is beyond fucking insulting. Savita Halappanavar wasn’t a pregnant person. Michelle Harte wasn’t a pregnant person. Sheila Hodges wasn’t a pregnant person.

If the TDs capitulate and let this happen I will be really pissed off.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
Ereshkigal · 02/06/2018 10:33

In a way, it seems to me that the problem was when pregnancy and abortion was considered to be strictly a woman's issue. When it's actually a human rights issue.

It is a human rights issue, but the sex based oppression globally around pregnancy and abortion is important to recognise.

pachyderm · 02/06/2018 10:34

@Lweji how is pregnancy and abortion not strictly a woman's issue?! We know women are human, thanks, it's just that pregnancy and abortion ARE strictly a woman's issue. Go and tell that to the child brides and FGM sufferers in the developing world ffs. I'm sure they'd love to hear about how they can be nonbinary and identify out of their oppression.

NimbleKnitter · 02/06/2018 10:37

You really find the term 'people' so offensive?

The inclusive term that recognises us all as humans? Instead you'd rather exclude someone born female but chooses to identify as a man?

Or single them out as other?

How very unpleasant of you.

Grandmaswagsbag · 02/06/2018 10:38

I don’t have a problem with ‘pregnant women and trans men’ or pregnant people becasue it’s the same difference. I do however think there would probably be less delay and ambiguity if they used the term pregnant people, I’ve heard that laws are pretty complex things to draft up. The problem with threads like this is it’s completely over the top fake outrage. I’ve never met a women IRL that would find it deeply offensive to be referred to as a person. It’s interesting that I’ve seen people justify what are actually pretty derogatory statements about other peoples private/sex lives/ bodies by saying that ‘it’s the climate of the row with TRAs that lead to such statements’. If your staments look bigoted and sound bigoted then they’re probably just bigoted regardless of TRAs on Twitter, half of whome are just trolls anyway. Just because someone said something derogatory to you doesn’t mean you have the right to retaliate with equally derogatory comments, it’s not a playground.

NimbleKnitter · 02/06/2018 10:40

Ps I'm a cisgender pregnant person.

I have no objection to being called a pregnant person - that's what I am

SkinniesAreOver · 02/06/2018 10:46

I am not offended by pregnant people (although I do roll my eyes) but I find it scary that as a pp says they could wade in to the middle of a law that doesn't affect them and make it about them, they have the power to MAKE TDs listen to them, and women (actual women) don't seem to have the same power.

pachyderm · 02/06/2018 10:47

@Nimbleknitter - "how very unpleasant of you" you say. That's exactly what the TRAs say when women assert themselves, and what MRAs have been saying to women who assert themselves since time immemorial. Why can't you be NICE? Like a good woman? It's misogyny 101 and doesn't wash here, sorry.

You can call yourself a cisgender pregnant person or whatever Orwellian nonsense you want, you don't get to slap that label on others.

@Grandmaswagbag you're dismissing perfectly reasonable concerns of women as "over the top fake outrage" - what about the TRAs whose "over the top fake outrage" is creating this issue which was never an issue before? Is their outrage more important?

Ereshkigal · 02/06/2018 10:47

I do however think there would probably be less delay and ambiguity if they used the term pregnant people, I’ve heard that laws are pretty complex things to draft up.

Why? And why make it sound like all men could potentially be included?

What is wrong with "pregnant women and transgender people"?

Ereshkigal · 02/06/2018 10:48

You can call yourself a cisgender pregnant person or whatever Orwellian nonsense you want, you don't get to slap that label on others.

This.

Beamur · 02/06/2018 10:49

Apologies, haven't RFT but, the actual words used in legislation - are these themselves prescribed by law or custom and practice? In an issue totally unrelated to this (but pertinent to my work) a few years ago new legislation was introduced. The Govt produced a version, this was consulted/commented on but was then written up by specialist writers and it looked quite different, but still carried the same meaning.
I expect words which are not fully understood would be avoided but words with undisputed shared (legal) meaning would be used.
I would agree that for this issue, it should be clear that all all women, regardless of their presentation or legal gender should be covered. How to ensure that everyone who might need this legislation is included sensitively will be the key.
Looking at some of the posts on this thread, I suspect if self ID is resolved before this comes before Parliament, the language to be used may be more established. However, if this goes first, it may we'll become a tool to set the tone/language used.

Ereshkigal · 02/06/2018 10:50

what about the TRAs whose "over the top fake outrage" is creating this issue which was never an issue before? Is their outrage more important?

Would seem so, wouldn't it? Everyone bow down to the hyperbole and histrionics of the TRAs. We're literally killing them if we don't do everything they say.

Ereshkigal · 02/06/2018 10:53

Here's a perfectly reasonable and not at all fake outrage driven trans healthcare manifesto from a group that was invited to give written evidence to Miller's Trans "inquiry".

edinburghath.tumblr.com/post/163521055802/trans-health-manifesto

Ereshkigal · 02/06/2018 10:55

And a group which openly supports punitive violence against women who dare to disagree.

pachyderm · 02/06/2018 10:55

@Ereshkigal Yes, we had countless women suffering and dying because of the 8th amendment and it took 35 fucking years before anything was done about it. A week later and it's suddenly a vital pressing concern that TRAs are listened to and the word "women" must be removed from abortion legislation. It's surreal that anyone can't see what's going on here.

Ereshkigal · 02/06/2018 10:56

I know. I'm so sorry for all that Thanks

Ereshkigal · 02/06/2018 10:58

It's surreal that anyone can't see what's going on here.

And yes it is.

Ereshkigal · 02/06/2018 10:59

I'd like to bet that's why many of these activists inserted themselves into the repeal movement. Because that's exactly how they've operated all across the world, in anything which pertains to women and women's rights. Though strangely not men's Hmm

MiggeldyHiggins · 02/06/2018 11:00

In a way, it seems to me that the problem was when pregnancy and abortion was considered to be strictly a woman's issue. When it's actually a human rights issue

human rights for WOMEN, yes. Not for men. Men have no rights over pregnancy and abortion, luckily.

Grandmaswagsbag · 02/06/2018 11:02

what about the TRAs whose "over the top fake outrage" is creating this issue which was never an issue before? Is their outrage more important?

Nope, absolutely not but right now in an us against them Twitter war neither sides seem to able to see the wood from the trees. This particular issue isn’t about born males wanting to muscle in on a women’s issue, this is about making sure anyone who is pregnant (so goes without saying born female) has legal rights to abort in a country where you can be born with female body parts but legally recognised as male. It’s not the same as some TRAs wanting language to be changed so as not to cause offence.

daisychain01 · 02/06/2018 11:03

how blatantly obvious is is that some people really couldn’t give a shit about others feelings

Yup that's right, why should we pander to others' "feelings", that's their issue. Since when have women's feelings ever been of concern over the thousands of years they've had to put up with a whole heap of crap from the Male of the species. Now all of a sudden it has suddenly become a priority to worry about feelings rights, legislation etc.

Just checking... nope ....don't give a shiny shit.

pachyderm · 02/06/2018 11:05

@Grandmaswagbag then how come the most vocal are men? The brave and stunning ones and their terrible struggles, and their female acolytes fawning over them? The way they spend most of their time attacking and bullying "Terfs", most of whom are older women and/or lesbians? The whole dynamic of it reeks of male domination.

BeyondSceptical · 02/06/2018 11:05

I'm only about halfway through, but I had a thought.

The old legislation - the one that makes abortion illegal - refers to "women". So surely, if it was/is 100% enforced to the wording, transmen who are legally male have been able to have abortions. Men having abortions is/was not illegal.

Or was/is the law enforced on sex?

MiggeldyHiggins · 02/06/2018 11:06

You can’t get your head around 2 men having sex? And you can’t get your head around an unwanted pregnancy?

If you think 2 men having sex can create a pregnancy, you really shouldn;t be commenting on what other people can't get their heads around. You might want to get a biology book around yours, and give yourself a slap with it.

Ereshkigal · 02/06/2018 11:07

This particular issue isn’t about born males wanting to muscle in on a women’s issue,

Oh I think it is. Do you think it would have this much traction if it was only women? Do you think lawmakers really would listen if it was just a few trans identified females?

As I said, this is how (mostly male) transactivists have operated for 20 years or more. All across the world. They join, they take over, they change things. Language is critically important. We're all falling over ourselves here to call men women and women men. You're very naive.

SkinniesAreOver · 02/06/2018 11:07

Why are they listened to...

Naomi Alderman in The Power wrote something that made me think. Women commence any negotiation, any transaction with a man knowing that he could physically hurt her. Obviously unlikely if it's the manager of Curry's and she's just trying to return a kettle that didn't work, but it's there it's tacitly known, he COULD hurt her. And if you think about it, no matter what our roles, even if the woman is the boss, in evolutionary terms we know that. SO back to Naomi Alderman's book. The woman learn to harness their power and just knowing that she could if she chose to give a man a shock that would at least injure and destabilise him, she makes her demands, she shuts him down, she moves on with the conversation without his permission.

Trans women aren't women because they still have The Power.