Well, it’s happened... the trans activists have waded into the 8th amendment issue in Ireland

[AngeloMysterioso]

And are apparently pushing for the language in the repeal legislation to be “gender neutral”.

Quote from the article-

“Despite what some may believe, men can become pregnant too. There are tens of thousands of transgender men and non-binary people in Ireland who can conceive, and when speaking about reproductive healthcare, we must always be mindful of that.

“It’s imperative that newly written legislation uses inclusive language. By including this, trans men and non binary people will not hit legal barriers should they need to receive an abortion. By using the term pregnant people in new legislation, as well as protecting women, we are also protecting and respecting all gender identities should a crisis pregnancy occur.”

So. That’s nice. Thousands upon thousands of women have suffered, many have died, because of bullshit like the 8th amendment. And after fighting so hard for so fucking long and finally winning the right to bodily autonomy and reproductive rights, if the TAs get their way, we get to be referred to as pregnant people

I’m a bit of a TERF at the best of times but this is beyond fucking insulting. Savita Halappanavar wasn’t a pregnant person. Michelle Harte wasn’t a pregnant person. Sheila Hodges wasn’t a pregnant person.

If the TDs capitulate and let this happen I will be really pissed off.

I'm GC and very much not here for any trans nonsense. I also wouldn't want a situation where a female who had got their legal gender changed to male needed an abortion, and ran into any kind of delay or obstacle to that because the legislation might be seen not to cover them. I don't know if this is a realistic worry. If it's never going to happen, fine, not something to bother about then.

PaulDacreRimsGeese

If legislation and medicine would only recognise sex not gender in these situations then we wouldn't have this issue.

Do you mean if the law just said female and the person couldn't change their sex to male, only their gender to man?

It's very obvious really. All women are people but not all people are women. "People" don't need abortions because they are people, women need abortion laws because they are women.

Legislation needs to be clear and differentiate between the biological sexes. Transmen are female and so would be covered by any new law on terminations anyway. No need to muddy the water further with gender feelz.

It's irrelevant. It's not like positive discrimination where women need specific legislation.
If only people with working female organs can get pregnant, there's no need to call them by any sex or gender. They can be called people for simplicity.
There is no need for specific laws for pregnant women, just for anyone who is pregnant.
Making lists of anyone other than women who can get pregnant can only lead to further ammendments.

See how LGB has been extended to LGBT, or LGBTQ, or LGBTI, or LGBTI, or LGBTQI or LGBTQIA+... even LGBTTQQIAAP.

racial fluidity." It's the belief that race, like gender, is a choice, not a biological identity you're assigned at birth. Racially fluid people reject the box they're put in and craft their own identity.

as a black person with mixed child

PaulDacreRimsGeese I mean, law and medicine should be focusing on sex not gender so anything that says "woman" or "man" should be to do with sex. After all a woman is an adult female, nothing more or less. If law was to just use biology to identify rather than "feelings" which is fluid and unmeasurable then it would be clear cut.

They should. I think the worry is if they don't. Like how in the UK you can get your birth certificate changed to say male instead of female, or vice versa.

I'd like to say thanks to Doom for helping lots of lurkers #peaktrans.

sages.org.uk/publications/sages-factsheet.html

"Language related to women’s reproductive functions and female anatomy is being changed to be inclusive of trans-identifying people. But female reproductive health is a key area in which women are often discriminated against, and it’s essential for them to be able to describe their female anatomy clearly, accurately, and scientifically.21

The proposed legal changes will make the word “woman” meaningless. Women are adult female humans: members of the sex class able to bear children.

If the law is changed, a “woman” will become “anyone who identifies as a woman”. This will not change material reality. The half of the population with the potential or perceived ability to bear children will still face discrimination because of their sex and will still need to organise together to talk about it.

This will become very difficult if there is no word to describe them."

It’s sickening that you want to deny someone the right to have an abortion tbh

Sorry, but isn’t this capturing people who were born biologically female, but identify as men, but want to be able to bear kids? This isn’t about trans women who can’t biologically bear children. Aren’t you lot just getting yourselves worked up over nothing ......as per usual

Yeah! That'll be the explanation.

Women getting pissed of when a group of selfish twats hijack a landmark ruling and try to make it all about them instead of just celebrating the achievement.

Yeah, total over reaction!

wictional where has anybody said they want to do this? It’s sickening that you want to deny someone the right to have an abortion tbh
Nobody has said that. Many posters have suggested ways to make the legislation inclusive. They have also pointed out the possibility that ‘pregnant peole’ could leave the door open for the foetus’ father to prevent its mother from getting an abortion. People objecting to this are doing it over
a) worries about the erasure of natal women and our rights, and
b) a desire to ensure the legislation is clear and unambiguous.

strongmummy It strikes me as a very male/ misogynist attitude to claim that you are a man yet use your female anatomy to carry and produce that child, then deny/reject that same biology yet keep the child and 'live as a man'. With that attitude, no wonder some people think that 'gestators' (incubators) seems like an acceptable term to use for women's bodies.

I don't agree that you should be able to claim to be and legally identify as a male and then go on to carry a child with your female biology. It picks and chooses when and how to be trans in way that is inconsistent and arbitrary, (and is a mind-fuck legally and for anyone who is not wanting to offend) anymore than you should be able to be a male who dresses as a woman on Tuesdays and Thursdays and then gets awarded Business Woman of the year. If you cannot come to terms with your reality then I really feel for you, but you cannot expect it to be enshrined in law, especially when there are so many repercussions for everyone else.

How many transmen do not take hormones that would supress them being pregant anyway? If god forbid they were raped, one would assume that they are consciously suppressing their menstruation already and taking extra male hormones and/or have had a hysterectomy? Would this not prevent pregancy? If not actively transitioning, how else could they have a basis to be claiming to be male?

No coincidence there that "wictional" rhymes with "fictional". No one is denying anyone biologically female the right to an abortion. We're just suggesting that because this is a women's rights issue, "woman" is the appropriate wording in general, with a subclause to explain that the scope of the legislation encompasses people who choose to identify as transmen or non binary.

Absolutely samphire It is a completely selfsh and unforgiveable hijacking of a landmark acheivement that is so powerful and symbolic for women.

I posted about my m/c and infertility on Twitter as part of a wider debate.

Some TRA sent me swaithes of messages about my “cis-privilege” and how I should be grateful I experience those things.

The more I read, the more concerned I get NOT about transpeople but the rise and agenda of TRA

I don't agree that you should be able to claim to be and legally identify as a male and then go on to carry a child with your female biology.

I don’t agree that anyone should tell anyone else that they can/can’t be pregnant and trans. It’s happened, it will continue to happen. It’s their body and no ones business but theirs.

I think people are overlooking that the Irish Gender Recognition Act is even more progressive than the present British one. For instance it allows self identification. Like the British one it changes sex as well as gender. People might not like it but in Ireland that boat has sailed

"I don’t agree that anyone should tell anyone else that they can/can’t be pregnant and trans. It’s happened, it will continue to happen. It’s their body and no ones business but theirs."

That's always been the cornerstone of feminism

If their body can conceive and bear a baby, then their body is female no matter what they claim about being male.

I don’t agree that anyone should tell anyone else that they can/can’t be pregnant and trans. It’s happened, it will continue to happen. It’s their body and no ones business but theirs

Quite right. But that has little to do with pushing back against the actions and demand of TRAs.

As many GC posters here have said, repeatedly, it isn't an issue with transgenderism or trans people. The issue is with the TRAs...

In order to truly understand what many posters are saying you need to know that. Otherwise we do all sound like banshees railing against bodily autonomy!

That's awful Jacques. Cis miscarriage privilege my arse.

jacques

That’s truly sick no human fit to be called human spouts crap like that. I hope you ignored that arsehole. Xx

Ah thanks. Yeah reported and blocked.

But yeah. I will say by that point I was stronger/ had grieved and moved on but it still hurt. Imagine someone who hadn’t getting messages like that 😡

@unplug, you don’t believe trans men are men anyway so WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM? Seriously ( and I ask this on every trans thread) what are you scared of? Give me one example of how you PERSONALLY have suffered because of a trans person? I am an ardent feminist, but I do not see how women’s rights are being eroded by the existence of trans people. In fact I think it is far more detrimental to the fight for equality for their to be a trans woman category. Employers for example would then know they were hiring someone “born Male”. Trans people suffer horrific injustice. They are lampooned and bullied. As women and as feminists we should be supporting the underdog not adding to the grief. I find it abhorrent