Well, it’s happened... the trans activists have waded into the 8th amendment issue in Ireland

[AngeloMysterioso]

And are apparently pushing for the language in the repeal legislation to be “gender neutral”.

Quote from the article-

“Despite what some may believe, men can become pregnant too. There are tens of thousands of transgender men and non-binary people in Ireland who can conceive, and when speaking about reproductive healthcare, we must always be mindful of that.

“It’s imperative that newly written legislation uses inclusive language. By including this, trans men and non binary people will not hit legal barriers should they need to receive an abortion. By using the term pregnant people in new legislation, as well as protecting women, we are also protecting and respecting all gender identities should a crisis pregnancy occur.”

So. That’s nice. Thousands upon thousands of women have suffered, many have died, because of bullshit like the 8th amendment. And after fighting so hard for so fucking long and finally winning the right to bodily autonomy and reproductive rights, if the TAs get their way, we get to be referred to as pregnant people

I’m a bit of a TERF at the best of times but this is beyond fucking insulting. Savita Halappanavar wasn’t a pregnant person. Michelle Harte wasn’t a pregnant person. Sheila Hodges wasn’t a pregnant person.

If the TDs capitulate and let this happen I will be really pissed off.

I would not want a single transgender person to be denied an abortion based on semantics

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed : there are some silver linings in all this. I identify as having testicles (having learned to 'grow a pair' from many years on MN ) but as they are in my mind, not my knickers, I don't think they can become cancerous or even lumpy.

I think this highlights the need to separate biological sex and gender identity for official purposes.

Only biological women can get pregnant. Your gender identity has zero impact on your ability to get pregnant.

It would be so much less divisive if we could stick to woman and man having the same meanings as they've had for thousands of years. Then if people want to have a name for their particular gender identity as well, no problem.

We do this for sexuality and race already. You can be a gay man, bisexual women, black woman, white man. Some even have special names that combine the two: lesbian = homosexual woman; eunuch = castrated man who feels like a man. Surely transwoman would cover that very nicely = man who wishes to present as and be treated as a woman.

The law only gets in pickle because a particular law repurposed language confusing biology with gender identity.

We end up with needing to talk about pregnant people despite (1) every person on the planet knowing that only biological women get pregant (2) an awful lot of people (including me) not identifying with their "gender", i.e. society's expectations of how a person with their biology should feel and behave.

The law should say women because that has long standing meaning. Unless we change every law about everything sex based to have "pregnant people" "people with penises" type language then we should stick with women and men, male and female. Surely, in the short term, it would be much easier to be clear in the Irish laws around gender recognition the circumstances in which woman means biological woman and when it means person who identifies as a woman? As I understand it the Irish do this pretty successfully now in other areas like refuges, prisons etc. They've set it up so you don't have to twist language into "pregnant people".

I think this highlights the need to separate biological sex and gender identity for official purposes.

YY to that.
Instead of skirting around about asking about gender rather than sex etc..., talking about women/female and what not, we need to separate the two.
It will make everything much easier, not the least on a legal POV.

There are tens of thousands of transgender men and non-binary people in Ireland who can conceive

no their are biological women who say they are men who can conceive their are no cases in the world ever of biological men who say they are women having a baby

This should be a non-issue. Why does the law need to say woman, pregnant person or anything which labels and categorises people? All it needs to say is that pregnancies can be terminated in (list circumstances) and that if they follow the rules (list) all those involved in terminating a pregnancy (parents doctors etc) will not face prosecution. Not difficult really.

Women who have legally become men are already a special case in law - it's a legal fiction, there are circumstances where their biological sex overrides their legal one - eg. Prisons, Clergy so there's no reason this couldn't also be the case with abortion.

Right, so if that’s the case it will be the same for trans women then, which begs the question what is all the fuss about changing the law in the 1st place?

ScrubTheDeck
But females who identify and live as men can do all these things"amd the key is they are females saying their men they are NOT and can never be men I am black I can never be white I have met black people who identify as white because they were adopted by a white family who only date white men live in all white areas but they will never be White regardless of what they tick on the council form

All it needs to say is that pregnancies can be terminated

This is a great idea, however we should ensure that within this legislation the choice of having an abortion is the pregnant woman's choice and I worry that without the term "pregnant woman" then there could be a claim laid on by the man who impregnated her...?

RabbitsAreTasty

I think this highlights the need to separate biological sex and gender identity for official purposes.

This. Always this. Be any of the 72 )?) genders available if that's your belief system but biological sex is unchangeable.

We can only stick to legal definitions of Male/female, as the law stands now, someone who could get pregnant can legally be a man, so it’s obvious that legislation needs to cover that. Honestly this thread is ridiculous. It’s a bit like the fake outrage ‘mother’s day’ cards that don’t say Mother’s Day thread, and I’m afraid I’d put it in the ‘trans bashing for the sake of it’ category. The wording will affect no one apart from potentially trans men not included if the law uses the term woman. That would be pretty catastrophic for those people. It doesn’t matter if you think this is silly or ‘post truth’, it’s a practicality.

The anti abortion lobby want laws to be sex neutral in language, because they want to push for the right of men to stop women having an abortion if it is their baby.
My worry is if the demand of transactivists was taken on board, the law could be written in such a way that in the future it will be used to give men rights as to whether a woman can have an abortion.

Crunchymint do you have evidence to suggest that it’s anti abortion lobby pushing for this wording please?

What is wrong with saying women and transmen grandma?

Wouldn't that be respectful of both women and transmen?

Oh miggledy your 'more like 10' made me laugh. I agree with you and shutup, where are all these tens of thousands of transpeople in Ireland hiding. I live in the most liberal area of Ireland and I have only seen a transwoman once, and that was at the airport. Pregnant female is perfectly correct and adequate, although people can self id here, prisons, hospitals etc are still sex segregated, so the law really only pays lip service to the (tiny) trans community.

Oh for gods sake, we wouldn’t have needed to repeal the 8th if men could get pregnant ... because abortions would be available 24/7 everywhere if they could.

Wouldn't that be respectful of both women and transmen?

Transmen are women. The clue is in the word "trans".

grandma which is why it’s sooo I portant to be careful withnlangauge and not to put sex and gender in the same bag.
I wouod hope doesn’t say that someone can change their sex. But that they can change their gender.
As long as we will carry in using the same words (man/woman/Male/female) to talk both about sex and gender, we will have confusion and risk of alleniating one group.

The issue of course is that trans activists are playing a lot on that. The issue is getting extremely confusing and allows them to be able to attack people with very little. They don’t want the difference between gender and sex to be highlighted because it would stop (some of) them from abusing the system

"As long as we will carry in using the same words (man/woman/Male/female) to talk both about sex and gender, we will have confusion and risk of alleniating one group.

The issue of course is that trans activists are playing a lot on that. The issue is getting extremely confusing and allows them to be able to attack people with very little. They don’t want the difference between gender and sex to be highlighted because it would stop (some of) them from abusing the system"

Great post.

I wasn’t aware that the law dealt with the wishy washy concept of gender. As the law stands you can either be Male or female and a person with a womb and ovaries can be Legally Male. Unless you suggest we change that, abortion legislation has to include those people.

MetooDear "But females who identify and live as men can do all these things"*amd the key is they are females saying their men they are NOT and can never be men I am black I can never be white I have met black people who identify as white because they were adopted by a white family who only date white men live in all white areas but they will never be White regardless of what they tick on the council form "

If you separate sex (male and female ) from gender (man/woman) then 'identifying as men' is possible, because it expresses how they feel and where they think their gender identity is placed.

Do black people really self-identify as white? My own nuclear and extended family and circle of friends and colleagues is very mixed (S London, innit) and we regularly discuss race, culture, identity etc. I have never heard a black person, however often they are called coconut assimilated into white culture, describe themselves as identifying as white. They are sure they are black. whilst Transwomen are sure they are women.

You are right: a black person cannot become white, a white person cannot become black just as a female person cannot become male, and vice versa - but a male person can identify as woman and a female person can identify as man. Which is where the difference between sex and gender comes in.

"Savita Halappanavar wasn’t a pregnant person. Michelle Harte wasn’t a pregnant person. Sheila Hodges wasn’t a pregnant person."

None of these women were pregnant because they were people doomRaider. They were pregnant because they were women.

It's very obvious really. All women are people but not all people are women. "People" don't need abortions because they are people, women need abortion laws because they are women.

Legislation needs to be clear and differentiate between the biological sexes. Transmen are female and so would be covered by any new law on terminations anyway. No need to muddy the water further with gender feelz.

ScrubTheDecks Really I think you will find
“Passing” a very common thing

thetempest.co/2018/02/20/culture-taste/white-passing-privilege/

m.youtube.com/watch?v=UJEOwn0EUVk

Black people have been know to do it their was a very famous South African film were parents passed there mixed child off as white

Parents do it mixed raced people who are very light do it but however light they are or appear they are mixed raced not white also black people do it also

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/03/02/us/racial-fluidity/index.html

As a black person I assure you this happens their are countless films and books about passing

but a male person can identify as woman and a female person can identify as man

But what exactly is it to be a woman or a man? Isn't a woman just a female adult?