To think my friend just needs to say no to her kids?

[reddblackandblue]

I have been very close to my friend for years. She is genuinely a lovely, lovely person. Too lovely.

She’s always been very into ‘gentle’ parenting but ever since her eldest turned two, she has had these screaming tantrums that last half an hour or more and no one can do anything during this period except sit and wait for the child to exhaust herself into sleep.

Obviously, I thought this was normal so waited it out. Child turned three, four and five and still has tantrums and screams when she doesn’t get her own way. The younger child who isn’t now three is exactly the same.

I think my friend just can’t say ‘no.’ Even when something is obviously impractical or dangerous she will sit around for ages reasoning with them rather than saying no. This has meant us all standing by a busy road while the children scream, standing outside the car waiting to get in as the kids won’t get in their car seats, waiting around exhausted at midnight as the kids rampage around.

Now she’s expecting another.

Aibu in just not wanting to be around her any more? I absolutely love her. The kids? I can’t stand them!

*isn't gentle parenting

I have a few friends who we don't see with kids in tow.

Either because their kids are shits and my kids hate them, or because I cannot stand the way they parent. (usually its the combination)

So I'm all in when it's evening drinks etc. But always busy when it's a daytime kid thing.

It will never end. My DM’s best friend’s youngest is now 18 and she still treats him in the same way, he is a total twat and is regularly in trouble with the police. He will grunt at her to make him food and she will just so it without question. My DM can’t be around him anymore, she just can’t believe his lack of manners or respect. Children need boundaries.

Agree with socks.

I try and be as gentle a parent as possible. but my children still know no means no.

I'm actually pretty strict with most things (sweets/screen time/school work etc) but very rarely need to punish my girls and between them they've had less than 10 tantrums ever.

My rules are very clear (my husband is an exactly the same page so there's no confusion) and I think kids are happy and comfortable when they know what's expected.

This is making me sound like Mrs Trunchball I know realise, I'm not, I promise. Also most of the rules in the house apply the same to DH and I as well as the girls, so it's all very fair.

reasoning with them for ages because they don't want to do something that needs to be done. I would put child in car seat then ignore subsequent screaming I would not stand outside of car for half an hour asking them nicely to get in the car.

This is absolutely it. DS1 had a tantrum phase (including the lying flat in the middle of the road screaming) - sometimes you just pick them up and get on with it. There's no reasoning with a tantrum anyhow.

My DD is so stubborn she could compete with a herd of donkeys and win. If I let her get away with just reasoning and gentle discussion and explanation, she'd just give me a smartass answer and do whatever she believes is better.
We are strict in terms of punishment. When we say a week with no TV or ice-cream, then that's it. No excuses.
I would never ever stand outside in a rain, trying to persuade a child to get out. If they don't want to, tough. I'm still stronger and bigger than them. Alternatively, I can always get back into the car and don't go where they wanted to go, especially considering that most of the time as a parent with kids in the car you are taking them somewhere for fun. An exception would be e.g. GP etc.

Gentle parenting is not about never saying no. As a PP said it can be misunderstood. We are fairly "gentle" but have firm boundaries.

Nurture determines whether that behaviour is managed properly.

So, if a child has perfect nurturing and parenting, they won't have a bad bone in their body? Or at least they won't act on any bad thoughts or feelings? Sorry, I call bullshit.

The children I know who have been raised with 'gentle' parenting methods (I think honestly they're more often permissive than gentle, whatever the parents say) seem to fall largely into two camps - either they are tyrannical bullies or they end up with sort of non-personalities that just sort of take up space and don't seem to have much of interest about them at all.

Notweaving, you are pretty unlucky/unusual in knowing so many awful kids

In my experience (mum of three and former teacher), these children often grow up to be unpleasant teenagers who are unpopular with others in their own peer group. This is because they know no boundaries and are unable to accept situations where they don’t get their own way. Whilst I think that reasoning with children should always be the first thing you do (unless they are in danger) ultimately they must learn that sometimes there must be compromise or simply do as you are told.

Your friend would probably benefit from a few parenting classes OP. Although it wouldn't go down well to suggest it.

She must be unhappy with the way things are? What a horrible atmosphere it must be at home with all that screaming and dramatics for everyone.
Surely she doesn't enjoy having to sit out 2 hour long screaming tantrums and must be embarrassed in public or in company when it happens? Maybe she's lost and feels like she doesn't have a fucking clue what to do?
It sounds awful.

I had a friend who parented like this. It was about her needs not his and I felt it was abusive leave a child screaming and not firmly calm them and teach them boundaries.

I stopped spending time with her and her child but sometimes see her at events - he is now 14 and heavily uses weed which she allows in her home because "it's better than him being on the streets"

I am of course 'lucky' to have such lovely DC!!

Children tantrum like this because they feel insecure. They are looking for the boundaries and they are bothered that they can't find them.

Not all of them - mine does it because he lacks the ability to express himself when he is cross. Mine has boundaries that he completely understands when he is calm and is incredibly rational when not in a heightened emotional state. However, he will tantrum WAY past the point of getting what he wants (sometimes he doesn't actually want anything e.g he had a massive strop about me moving something he had been using recently - no warning, no idea it was going to end in a massive screaming strop, so I apologised to him and moved it back as it really wasn't a big deal but by then he was past the point of no return) and struggles massively to regulate his emotions once they have started to spiral out of control.

When he is on the path to a meltdown, the ONLY thing I can do is ignore him and let it play out. Approaching him results in him lashing out physically and verbally and prolongs the whole experience. If he is a danger to himself or others, I remove him from the situation as best I can and try to park him somewhere away, but we cannot simply up and leave every time it happens as I have other children who would be effectively being punished if I did that and I can't get him onto public transport for example, so I reserve that as a last resort for when there is literally no other option.

What we do, which people probably wouldn't know to watch us when he is in the midst of a meltdown, is try to teach him how to use his brain to avoid the emotions taking over. When we get a warning that he's boiling over, we talk to him and help him to work out a way to reach a resolution without blowing up. But if he has gone past the point where reasoning will work, then we just have to let it play out. Punishing him for not having the ability to regulate his emotions seems pointless and actively counterproductive. It may look like we're doing nothing, but we're working really hard at helping him.

And to those who keep saying that’s not what GP means i am afraid the message is not getting out their
It’s just given submissives and parents who want to avoid doing the job that they have been tasked with a get out clause

My friends son is raised like this and is currently really struggling at our childminder who doesn’t have two hours to stand in the rain and wait for him to choose if he wants to leave the park

And I certainly would never babysit for her he’s a nightmare

DoJo I am afraid that’s how parenting works with multiple kids

And then when your not about the group eg other siblings ensure the behaviour or the guilt party is rectified

I remember throwing a wobbly at those park and having to leave my sister when’s bat shot on me didn’t happen again

Ime it is perfectly possible to be a perfectly firm and authoritative (not authoritarian) parenting style and still end up with a child who tantrums for 2 hrs because cutted-up pear. The key here is not what the child does but how you manage it as a parent. Damage limitation, swift thinking so as to avoid inconvenience to other people, showing willingm

My closest friend parents very differently to me and, being completely honest, I have to keep my children away from hers as they genuinely frighten me. Her children are described as 'wild', 'spirited' and often have 'meltdowns' or 'lose it'. They are violent and turn on her, hurting her, regularly. She sees this as them having a way of venting in safety, so allows it. They also have epic tantrums that last hours. Not hours of whimpering in their rooms and starting up again when they know they have an audience, but hours of prolonged screaming. I've witnessed it and it's quite terrifying.

She is a gentle parent, and one of the loveliest souls you could meet, but her children have the power and they know it. They lash out if they don't get their way and while there are consequences to their actions, they're minimal and the children learn nothing. Her husband parents very differently and so they clash, with her siding with the children. The family dynamic is pretty awful - it's like watching a car crash in slow motion.

All I can do is keep supporting her, and keep our friendship going, but just the two of us, away from our families and children, which is really sad. I would love to be a big part of their lives, but for my own children, I just can't.

DoJo I am afraid that’s how parenting works with multiple kids

Maybe for you - it's not an option for me. Not least because I cannot physically manoeuvre the older one whilst keeping the younger one safe to leave somewhere, but also because it serves no purpose. As I said - I'm not going to punish my child because of a developmental delay when it comes to regulating his emotions.

Plus, as much as my younger child might be tempted to go batshit, a 2 year old vs a 6 year old will not have the desired result!

It's not about "punishing" a tantrum but it's about not rewarding a tantrum. i.e not giving in and that includes not giving the tantrum lots of attention (reasoning, talking about feelings, sitting quietly patting their kicking legs).

By the age of 5 (SEN excepted) a child that still tantrums has learnt that by doing that they will get results.
At that age, it's not a normal toddler tantrum borne from an inability to communicate what they feel.
If tantrums had no effect they would have stopped by the age of 5.

Has your friend ever mentioned her parenting "Technique" or her views on parenting? I wonder if she's just struggling to cope with her children and doesn't know how to handle them rather than actually following a Gentle "method".

Not sure how you can help her but what a shame to lose a good friend over this.

It's not about "punishing" a tantrum but it's about not rewarding a tantrum. i.e not giving in and that includes not giving the tantrum lots of attention (reasoning, talking about feelings, sitting quietly patting their kicking legs).

^^

Nailed it....

My DD was a nightmare until about 5 1/2 and a soft approach would have probably resulted in her being lost or run over etc. I've always been consistent and it paid off. Don't get me wrong, she has her moments, as all children do. Mostly though, she's a little poppet and people comment on how well behaved she is. At 2, I was pinning her into car seats, buggies etc. 😂

I think “gentle” parenting ( if that’s what it’s called this decade) is getting a bad press on here. It is not what OPs friend was doing. Surely it’s about listening to your child, helping them handle their emotions and feelings so that they feel they themselves are valid and worthwhile. This ,imo, gives them “self” consciousness so they become respectful of others and how they affect other people. Just part of learning good manners and building self confidence.
It’s certainly not about letting their tantrums rip. Surely that is letting a child’s emotions rage unchecked which can be very scary.
When it works well, with my more articulate children it’s a fantastic way of parenting. It’s harder the more kids you get because it takes time and patience but I always tried to use this approach with varying degrees of success.

God yes I remember mine used to refuse to get in the buggy sometimes Isevery One of mine used to make himself all rigid like a plank so I couldn't bend him

I work with a woman that often makes a dramatic scene and gets a bit stroppy if things don't go as she wants. As an adult it stops being called a tantrum and they start being called a "Diva" instead!

So, if a child has perfect nurturing and parenting, they won't have a bad bone in their body? Or at least they won't act on any bad thoughts or feelings? Sorry, I call bullshit

WTF are you on about?
No child has 'perfect nurturing' and no one said what you are suggesting.
The point was that when you have a child with a determined or stubborn personality, your parenting has to manage that with firm, clear boundaries and not allow the child to be the one in control just because they are more challenging.
No child is born with 'a bad bone in their body' and no child is perfect.