To think my friend just needs to say no to her kids?

[reddblackandblue]

I have been very close to my friend for years. She is genuinely a lovely, lovely person. Too lovely.

She’s always been very into ‘gentle’ parenting but ever since her eldest turned two, she has had these screaming tantrums that last half an hour or more and no one can do anything during this period except sit and wait for the child to exhaust herself into sleep.

Obviously, I thought this was normal so waited it out. Child turned three, four and five and still has tantrums and screams when she doesn’t get her own way. The younger child who isn’t now three is exactly the same.

I think my friend just can’t say ‘no.’ Even when something is obviously impractical or dangerous she will sit around for ages reasoning with them rather than saying no. This has meant us all standing by a busy road while the children scream, standing outside the car waiting to get in as the kids won’t get in their car seats, waiting around exhausted at midnight as the kids rampage around.

Now she’s expecting another.

Aibu in just not wanting to be around her any more? I absolutely love her. The kids? I can’t stand them!

A relatives 2 yr old doesn't have tantrums because she 'talks things through with him' and 'respects his need for discussion'
🙄

Personally I don't think any parenting style in inherently wrong.

I think the problems start when a parent "decides" on a specific style and adheres to it doggedly when it's apparent it's not working.

A good parent accepts they are bring children up to engage in wider society and where a parenting style has the effect of being both anti social and reinforcing poor behaviour then frankly you need to adapt your technique.

Most of the time my DS responded well to a gentle style. He's very logical and was so when little, so explaining why he needed to do something worked. However there were times he'd be stubborn, tantrum etc and I'd explain once and if "no joy" then the requirement was simply enforced - if that meant picking him up screaming and putting him in his car seat - so be it. I'd never have stood for an hour negotiating about it.

As pp's have said it varies from child to child. So what worked with one isn't a dead cert to work with others - they are not carbon copies of each other.

I did know a parent who took gentle parenting to an extreme even when it was clearly not a suitable approach for their child's personality.

It didn't work out well....play dates diminished and friendships faltered, because other parents in the social circle neither wanted their child to witness the poor behaviour of the child and parent and think it was acceptable/normal and also because it was exhausting and frustrating (these kids being central to every decision and essentially holding the rest of the group to ransom on even trivial matters).

So, whilst you can't tell someone how to parent OP you also don't have to deal with the fallout of parenting you find lacking.

I cut contact with the parent described above and have never regretted it - I frankly felt nothing but relief that I'd never have to deal with the chaos and frustration of dealing with them again.

loandbeholdagain

I would have done exactly the same as you with plug socket child. With the eldest that would have worked.
My DS would have returned to the plug socket again and again. Every time I let go of his arm.
It would have been childproofed at home and most of my friends houses but if out I would have smacked his hand ( don’t judge - he is 34, we all did it then) he would kind of get that usually. I guess if he hadn’t stopped I would have put him in pushchair and if he screamed, in another room until ready to go. Nightmare!
He understands words (mostly😂) nowadays. Seems to have survived. I have 4 kids and two stepchildren who lived with us. They were all so different. If I had shouted at my dss he would have curled up inside and been traumatised for days. Ds only heard important things at raised volume.

I think the problems start when a parent "decides" on a specific style and adheres to it doggedly when it's apparent it's not working

This^^^

Best thing is my friend, and I imagine alot of other 'gentle parenting' parents, has absolutely no clue how their child comes across. She uses words like spirited, feisty, big personality, the list goes on. She says things like 'you're so lucky your children are so well behaved' as though thats accidental and sheer luck. She has no clue why people started avoiding them and would get pissed off when she was so adament we must all of been lucky and had it easy compared to her having such a high spirited little obnoxious brat created by her lack of parenting cherub.

'I never said one rule did fit all. I said doing nothing is not acceptable, and blaming lazy parenting on the kids personality is also unacceptable.'

Totally agree with you Miggledy. With young children, ultimately the parents are in charge, and certain things NEED to happen whether the child likes it or not (car seat, medicine, not touching dangerous things for example).

OP, I would feel the same as you, and just couldn't be around these children anymore.

I’m not sure you can say OPs friend is not parenting. She is putting quite a lot of effort in. Who would have the patience to ‘reason’ for that long? She is just not thinking it through.
I hate to critisice other parents methods. We all try our best after all.

redblackandblue
Thinking it through myself now. I do think you should definitely have a word. It’s a tricky one however it sounds like you will lose a lovely friend if something doesn’t change. Like I said earlier, try organising an outing without kids. Have a heart to heart. Reassure her that you love her friendship though because it will sound like an attack. We are all sensitive about our kids.

I never understand why gentle parents say they aim for discipline not compliance. Children need to learn to be compliant, not entirely bent to the will of others of course but in life (most notably at school and in work) there is a need to know when it's appropriate to be compliant.

I am a disciplined person. Often at school, I was required to do things I didn't particularly fancy. I complied, because I had been brought up to be respectful for people in authority (teachers, police etc).

In the workplace as an adult, I have also needed to be compliant where appropriate.There are many things at work that I outright don't agree with (policy) or don't like. Tough luck!

Teaching children that compliance is always a bad thing does them absolutely no favours in later life. By all means, think for yourself. But learn when it's appropriate to just do as you're bloody told!

It's very sad when you lose a friend over something like this but it is worse for the child. I have known some children who are described as 'free spirits' or other such gentle names and eventually they end up being the child that nobody invites anywhere. If they had occasionally been told no along with reasoning then they learn to understand if other people tell them no. Teachers certainly haven't got time to be reasoning with a child for half an hour, they need children to do what they have been asked when they have been asked.

Teaching children that compliance is always a bad thing does them absolutely no favours in later life. By all means, think for yourself. But learn when it's appropriate to just do as you're bloody told!

OPs friends dc at their age need to learn that they cannot distress or upset other people by their actions ( including their dm). To understand they have to have empathy. Which starts to happen at around 2 or more years of age. They begin to understand that others are sad or upset. That’s the angle I think I would take over car seats and putting on shoes.
“We have to get in the car seat quickly because xxxx will be very sad if we are late and she is left all alone at school. If you can’t get in yourself then I will have to make you” you can talk about it afterwards too ( over the screaming). “Ooo. I hope we are in time xxxx will be worried if we are not”
Each time they get a bit more self discipline, just making em do it without reasoning makes them feel helpless.

I dont think yabu, can you can meet up without the kids?

Parenting is shit hard and never easy and i try not to use no to much myself however, i think kids need to hear it sometimes otherwise they grow up thinking they can talk their way into or out of anything. Sometjmes no is no especially when dangerous. Should you explain, yes. Should you coax and cajole them around, no.

We were at a BBQ and they'd put the paddling pool out for the little ones. One girl kept lying on the edge and letting all the water out. Her dad said to the host "oh you can't tell her to stop, she'll scream her head off" she was about five, so hardly a baby.

I am going against the grain when I say I enjoyed gentle parenting. It worked well for my two children. They themselves have grown into sensitive, kind and compassionate people and have tons of friends, and always have. I don't go in for shouty parenting or public shaming.

Allowing a child to cry if they need to, is not the same as not disciplining if you see unkindness to another child. So while I would allow a tantrum to run its course, I would never allow any kind of spitefulness to another child or person. I would not make a scene but quietly take them away from the situation and explain why they can't continue.

I have taken time to explain things to dc rather than just punish. We had lots of friends who do the same, others more aggressive. I accept all of my friends and their parenting styles unless their children are really horrible to mine, and then I tend to opt for meeting up for drinks and dinner after bedtime.

I absolutely love her. The kids? I can’t stand them!

They are the product of her parenting so don't blame them.

My understanding (and belief) is that children need boundaries to feel and be safe. Boundaries also help them understand where they end and another person starts in terms of physically (keeping hands to oneself, not invading people's personal space, not physically dominating them or annoying them etc.) and psychologically (that people are seperate and to be respected and treated the way we would like to be treated, not screamed at, insulted, dismissed or bullied).

We all have to LEARN how civilized humans behave and social rules that keep us safe and keep interactions civil and hopefully enjoyable. We have to learn how to resolve conflicts.

If parents refuse to take control and responsibility I believe it is actually frightening for a child as you are not helping them learn how to control themselves and learn constructive behaviour. Instead you are teaching them "no-one is in control here, so I guess I will be in control". Who wants to be around or be friends with a person who has no empathy or ability to understand where boundaries in human behaviour are?

It is also clearly extremely dangerous if a child ignores "no" or "stop" when by roads or physical dangers. How can they keep themselves (and others) safe? What about all the dangers they face as teens and adults?

I consider it actually abusive and absolving parental responsibility to try and "reason" with a child who is not yet at a mature enough level to understand the nuances of the discussion. Don't overwhelm kids with too many choices and responsibilities that they are not equipped to handle. Get some backbone and enforce loving boundaries. Of course reason with them when age appropriate but even then sometimes you just have to say the answer is no. I am not going to spend hours reasoning with my 11 yr old son who wants to stay on a tablet for hours. I give him a time limit and take it away.

Never giving kids boundaries is not loving but unkind and leaving them unpepared for a world that will not tolerate their lack of internalized boundaries.

@Summerinrome thats fine because it worked for you. But if you are standing by a car for 30 minutes trying to persuade a child to get in then clearly it isn't working and another approach needs to be taken.

Great post MoveableFeast

I couldn't agree more, Moveable.

I see the results of these 'gentle parented' kids. They can't manage to safely walk without pushing and shoving, trying to trip others up. It's a total nightmare getting them anywhere. And if you ask them to stop and explain why they need to listen and walk sensibly, you're met with 'my mum let's me' and other such crap. All children need boundaries. I believe a lot of the problems we are facing with children's mental health these days has much to do with them being forced to make decisions they are not yet equipped to make.

I don't actually agree that parents get to completely decide how to parent.

This is just as abusive and neglectful as harsh parenting imo.

It does the child no favours because they don't exist in a vacuum but a society where there are rules and expected behaviours.

Plus as you've said - it can be dangerous. From what I've read on gentle parenting many parents misinterpret it into basically non parenting. It DOESN'T advocate no boundaries and no rules, it's about explaining the rules and boundaries and regulating them in a gentle way.

There are alternatives to "no" when it's safe to do so - distraction, closed options "do you want to wear the red top or the yellow top?" Rather than arguing about IF they're getting dressed etc

But there are times when "no" is necessary "no!" To hitting another child, to jumping off the top of the climbing frame etc when you're not near enough to remove instantly.

I say this as someone who's looked after LOTS of children mainly around this age, and who loves children.

It then comes as a huge shock to these children when they ARE told no (by child minders, nursery staff, teachers, youth leaders, other children and later employers and even police and other authorities). It also makes it very hard for them to make friends as they expect to always get their own way.

For you yanbu to distance yourself and restrict meet ups to grown ups only. I would find it very hard to bite my tongue if when she then moans about their bad behaviour. If it's no odds to you re keeping the friendship or not a kind word might be an idea. Well thought through though maybe "oh I remember that stage well, what worked for me was..."

Myotherusername - agree parents who do say no but don't mean it and don't follow through with consequences are just as bad. As a Lp it all fell to me the fun and the discipline. So I rarely said no but when I did I meant it and that followed through to house rules. Not saying dd perfect by a long stretch (sarcastic argumentative little madam - can't imagine where she gets it from 🙄😂) but she knew where I could be pushed and where I couldn't due to the language used.

Once (she was maybe 14/15) she was out with friends and a few new to the group tried to encourage her to stay out WAY past curfew. They were like "oh your mum will be mad at first but she'll calm down" When she was trying to explain that's not how I work her friends who were there who knew us well backed her up "ohhhhh you don't know graphista it'll be an instant weeks grounding with extra days if ddgraphista argues!" Which was true. Dd remarked recently that she gets more freedom than her friends - because I can trust her and she knows what I consider acceptable and not acceptable behaviour. The friends are now turning 18 and can't be trusted because they got away with stuff before so think they can get away with more now AND their parents are despairing.

I defy anyone who knows her to claim dd isn't a strong personality! She's been through a lot for 17yo and still goes to work, has a great strong friendship group that the core group have been friends since primary, deals with a disability and me as a mum! (Inc my health crap too). She's no pushover and would get nowhere at work if she was! (Customer service role aka complaints). She's also been raised not to blindly accept authority. So not docile at all!

Parenting is bloody hard work, we've had our issues, but I do think it's easier if everyone knows where they stand.

"screw having kids that kick off all the time if they dont get their way. What a miserable life for everyone." Definitely!

Re different kids needing different parenting (hate when people say "but we raised them all the same" 1 highly unlikely 2 kids are individuals) My mum says if she'd had my brother first she'd never have had another 😂 he was a very cry-y baby and then a very tantrummy toddler! I apparently - as a baby and toddler anyway - was an angel 😇. I only needed told once not to do/touch something that was dangerous and I wouldn't do it again. All fine and dandy - bro! Oh no! Daredevil from the beginning! Which must have been a nightmare! Climbing, jumping, getting stuck in things... He's now over 40 and still the same! Copper with the armed response unit, loves his motorbike and this year so far has done a parachute jump and an abseil for charity. Love him but glad he's not my kid! He doesn't tell mum his latest escapade until after now or she worries.

Sis is completely spoilt! I'm nc with her, parents still bail her out financially and practically most weeks. She's never managed to hold down a job or a partner for more than a couple years.

"it’s pretty unusual for a child who wants their own way to continue tamtrumming for a long time after they’ve got what they want." I've seen it in poorly parented children with no additional issues. They haven't been taught to regulate their negative emotions.

When dd was in the "terrible twos" stage she was left to tantrum but I mean left! I'd walk away! She'd still be in my sight but she wasn't getting what she wanted and she wasn't getting my undivided attention. I admit at its worst I did once phone my friend to come over when she was tantrumming in her room, I'd been ill and it was a case of "if I don't get out of here I will end up screaming never mind dd!" Friend obliged - and I returned the favour a few months later. It IS hard.

Dd had one friend who was pretty much allowed to do whatever she wanted. She now barely has a speaking relationship with her mother, her nrp father spoils her rotten (not yet 18 and on 2nd car after writing off first) and she's "fallen in with a bad crowd" personally I feel she is desperate for boundaries so she knows she's loved and she's not getting them.

Excellent post Movablefeast

I think it's daft to negotiate and reason with a child all the time.
I see people arguing with their small children and wonder wtf is going on in their head.

'I don't actually agree that parents get to completely decide how to parent.

This is just as abusive and neglectful as harsh parenting imo.'

Totally agree Graphista

grahista

I don't actually agree that parents get to completely decide how to parent

That’s what I was trying to say. You put it better. Parenting is a relationship, not a dictatorship. Mix of personalities. It changes according to the child just as it does as their needs change.
I was a better parent of babies than I was of teenagers, frankly I was a better parent for some of my kids than others.

I have a friend who gentle parents (her parents were nasty cunts so I completely understand her rationale)

Over the years I've had:

• Her DC refusing to remove his dirty wellies on a brand new carpet I mean it was days old and her refusing to "make him", he took his wellies off just fine when I asked him?
• Her turning up at a pub on a Sat evening with him in tow as he didn't want to stay with his Dad. Child wasn't allowed in pub so she left. That was a planned child free evening.
• constant lateness to everything (including work) as child hated his pram/ getting dressed etc.
• missing a big birthday of mine as her DC didn't want to come. It was a child friendly event.
• bringing her child to a very high end hairdressers and being surprised they weren't able to accommodate him (he was two and terrible!!)

She has another now and parents him in exactly the same way.

I don't see her very often anymore.