AIBU to not force my child to go to Romania for Christmas

[SquidgyBanana]

My ex husband is Romanian. We split up when our dd was 8 months old she’s now 9.

He takes her to romania every summer holiday for a couple of weeks and for a week in the Easter holidays.

Last week he said he wanted to book some dates in the summer holiday from 5th August to 23rd. Usually I just say yes that’s fine but this year I wanted to take her on holiday I’m the summer too.

I’ve never been able to afford to take her on holiday before and have been saving to be able to take dd & ds away.

I said the dates are smack bang in the middle of the holiday meaning I don’t have a lot of freedom to take her away for two weeks myself but he said tough basically.. those were the dates his family are available in Romania and that’s what he’s governed by and his holiday with her is more important than mine because I have her throughout the year.

I said I’m sure she would like to go on holiday with her 2 brothers and Mum too so could he pick the dates either at the beginning of the summer holiday or the second half so I could have the half he didn’t choose. He still said no.

I said so considering he takes her every year that means I will never be able To take her on holiday and he said that’s just tough basically.

In the end I said that I we will keep saving so we can take her away next year and have pick of the dates and he take her whenever he wants this summer... that was fine

Then yesterday he told my dd while he was out with her that he was taking to Romania for Christmas. She told me this morning

I understand that his family want to see her for Xmas and he wants her to experience a Romanian Xmas. But dd was distressed this morning saying she doesn’t Want to go away from home at Xmas.

I asked her why she didn’t tell him that yesterday when she was out with him and she said because he would argue with her.

I said to her that if she wants to go she can and if she doesn’t want to go I won’t force her and that she has to be strong and stand up for what she wants either way.

I sent him a message to explain that she’s not happy to go and suggested his family come over here for Xmas and they’re welcome to come over and see her Boxing Day and spend time with her while they’re here in my house if they want to/if it makes it easier but he replied ‘don’t you dare’ and that ‘life is about compromise and she has to learn that’ (which I think is ironic seeing as compromise is clearly not something he’s capable of)

AIBU to not force her to go to Romania for Christmas?

@LifeBeginsAtGin indeed. The fact that she doesn't want to go is good enough reason.

If I were forced to go when I didn't want to, I'd make sure the trip was difficult for everyone so they'd never want me to go back

@howrudeforme there is a big language barrier as she doesn’t speak it only a few words and sentences, his dm does speak a bit of English, she took lessons when we had dd so she could communicate which i thought was nice. My xh also used his trips home to dump ds with his dm while he slept/went to hang out with his old friends. Ds stuck at home all day with his gran. For a month! I think we might have the same xh! although usually xh cousins kids come and stay too so although they can’t communicate she plays with them and she gets spoilt rotten by dm... it’s fair to say my dd likes to be centre of attn’

Life - never said it’s an excuse not to go - but from a kid perspective it can be hard.

Kids don’t all absorb language. My DS doesn’t - really doesn’t, sadly.

Op your xp sounds unpleasant. He needs to realise that if carries on like this his ds will be walking away when older. The Christmas thing - any chance of her having Christmas with you then they fly to family for New Year. I’m sure their celebrations will carry through for a while. New Year abroad could be fun?

@nellieellie Whatever you do, do NOT tell your daughter she must be stronger and tell him no I understand what you’re saying there, I need to be the one to sort out the arrangements. It’s so hard to know how to phrase things sometimes because of how it can be perceived and I don’t want to influence her either way & I don’t want her to feel bad or guilty for anyone of us. I’ve already said to her to give it a little think and if she decides she doesn’t want to go this year that’s ok and I’ll speak to dad... she said ‘but he’s going to shout at you’ I said I’m a big girl and I’ll be fine. It’s sad she has those worries. Maybe when she goes to Romania in the summer his dm will tell her all the great things about Xmas there and she will change her mind... I still don’t understand why he wouldn’t just say to her of course Santa will bring a sock for you & if I could have I would have sent a sneaky Elf in her suitcase... as much as I know we all hate that little effer (worse thing I ever decided to do) she loves elf on the shelf’s antics... tbh I think his dm would have liked to do those things for dd and but I think he’s spoiling it for everyone

I think you both need to compromise more. She should spend time with both families and I think it's important she spend a Christmas there.

If you take her in the summer holidays, then she could go there at Xmas.

I just sent him a message saying I’m happy for her to go but I understand why she’s saying she doesn’t want to when you’ve told her no sock no sack no elf etc as those are the things she’s excited for and not only that you’ve not told her anything she is going to enjoy... I also said I think she should enjoy a Romanian Xmas but she’s not going to if she goes there unhappy and worried and if the sock and the elf make it all that little bit more exciting and she goes happy then it would be easier for me to get her excited about it rather than trying to explain why she can’t have the things she usually does... I also explained that he might not like my traditions but I’ve worked hard to maintain them for years and as her belief in Santa is already fragile this might be the last year she experiences the magic of him leaving a sock and he could be taking that away from her ... he replied and said fine for the sock if I do it which I will and he said elf on the shelf would insult his mum... who knew elf on the shelf could be so rude? I’ve just replied and said thanks for the sock and not giving up on elf I’ve asked if he would do it as I could then tell dd that elf on the shelf is sending a friend elf to keep an eye on her which I know she would be excited about... I haven’t heard back about that yet and maybe it won’t even change her mind but I’m sure it would help go a long way to her feeling comfortable about going especially if he then builds on that with all the things she can get excited for like the food and the midnight celebrations

Anything with wings like angels/cherubs are a complete no-no in Egypt, so it could be that elf isn’t acceptable.

If I were you I’d not insist on elf, but the sock should be something he actively supports because it’s familiar and will help her feel less isolated

Invite him to add to the sock stuff or he’ll feel you’re trying to muscle your way into his Christmas as he’ll see it as a link you’re driving for yourself.

If you and ex work together on the sock stuff, she will be able to see the best of both cultures coming together at Christmas

It's good he has accepted the sock as it clearly means a lot to you (though would your DD have even been worried about it if you hadn't told her she could take her sock and elf with her etc..?). He sounds like he deliberately likes to wind YOU up which makes him a bit of a cock but he is her father and you have to accept that you cannot and should not attempt to exert control over what he does with her when she is with him. I would imagine that he sees your requests as controlling interference - which they are a bit, tbh OP. It would not traumatise her to not have her sock and I am convinced that, had you handled it differently, she would not have even noticed it; she certainly won't be over there being miserable - as you've pointed out, she will be doted on by her grandma and have lots of cousins to enjoy a Romanian Christmas with. I think if you had handled it differently and not assumed that you could dictate the elf/sock being taken, she might have felt differently.

Re the summer, I think YANBU but at least he has agreed to different dates next yr.

Glad he’s agreed to the sock. Could the elf stay in her suitcase/bedroom just to keep an eye on her? If she’s still not happy to go now he has conceded a bit, I’d not make her. It’s not like DD doesn’t go to Romania at other times of year. Once she’s properly done with Santa being real, maybe that would be a better time to consider going for Christmas.

I realise that I am late to this, but at nine she absolutely is to young to be choosing where she goes and when. Because at nine she is too young to realise what the potential long term implications of those choices are. So e.g. at ten/eleven/twelve my DS would have refused to go on holiday with his dad if I’d allowed him to do that. He absolutely talked about his doubts and why he didn’t want to go, but at that age he was still too young to realise that refusing to spend time with his dad and partner and later on half siblings could lead to the complete breakdown of that relationship. As time has gone on he has made that choice anyway and that relationship has broken down, but not until he was old enough to actually know what he was choosing, iyswim.

At nine she doesn’t have the maturity to know that, and neither should she have the strength to tell her father that she doesn’t want to go, it should be down to the adults to discuss, with no input from the child at this point other than to talk about what she has independently, without influence from either parent, said her doubts are...

Secondly, your Christmas traditions are just that, your Christmas traditions. She comes from a household where her parents are not together and where she is of mixed heritage and where traditions are different in both cultures. As such it is not up to you to dictate to your ex what traditions she should follow when at his any more than you would welcome his input on how you should celebrate Christmas.

It always strikes me on MN that people uphold this child’s right to choose when it is the OP they are choosing to be with. If the OP had posted that she had chosen to be with her dad at Christmas posters would be telling her to put her foot down and tel him that she will be spending Christmas with her and absolutely no way would he be taking her. But because the DD has said she wants to be with her mum at Christmas and not go to Romania people are supporting that (although I realise not everyone obviously.) But for a nine year old to have never spent Christmas with her father ever even though she spends the majority of time with her mum is pretty bad form tbh. If this had been an arrangement through the courts it’s highly likely that he would have been awarded every other Christmas.

FWIW my DS does spend Christmas with me since his dad had other Children and his partner insisted that every Christmas should be spent with her family. However, if he’d wanted to go there instead I would have understood esp as the other DC are still so little and Christmas is magical for them still, but he doesn’t and his dad has seemingly accepted that without question. But prior to all that he liked to see both of us at Christmas and so would spend Christmas eve at one house and wake up there on Christmas morning and then come over to the other house at around teatime on Christmas day, and when it was us we postponed Christmas and presents until then. This is obviously not possible if your ex’s family live abroad but tbh they are your DD’s family as well and as such there is no real reason at this stage why she shouldn’t spend Christmas there. And at nine it’s highly unlikely she genuinely still believes in Santa but is probably just keeping up the facade for yours and her younger siblings’ benefit...

I realise that I am late to this, but at nine she absolutely is to young to be choosing where she goes and when. Because at nine she is too young to realise what the potential long term implications of those choices are. So e.g. at ten/eleven/twelve my DS would have refused to go on holiday with his dad if I’d allowed him to do that. He absolutely talked about his doubts and why he didn’t want to go, but at that age he was still too young to realise that refusing to spend time with his dad and partner and later on half siblings could lead to the complete breakdown of that relationship.

Some children absolutely do realise it willean a complete breakdown of the relationship of they refuse to visit, and that's what they want. Unbelievable, right?

I completely disagree that choosing not to go on holiday or for Christmas with a parent could lead a 'breakdown' in that relationship. If it does there is something seriously wrong with that parent.

I think 9 is too young to go to foreign country for Christmas in a language she may not speak fluently or at all, with wider family she cannot know that well, if she does not want to. It is not the responsibility of the child to keep the relationship going but that parent.

A child needs to feel in control of their life just as adults do. Forcing them out of their comfort zone against their will can be traumatising and damaging.

DD has to be heard, her opinion is valid. When she's older she will feel stronger and more confident about going away from home. Taking away 'input' from the child now could be very distressing.

Ruby do you have experience of speaking another language fluently and the long and painful process to get to that point? Do you have experience of staying with a family where everyone is speaking another language around you? Even if they speak English they will communicate with each other in their own language.

If DD's father was having her to stay for Christmas at his own place in the UK, even inviting his family over, this would not be such an issue.

Is she even that attached to her father? I can't imagine i'd care much about a family I only saw once or twice a year who lived abroad, father or not.

I'm sorry but however you look at it you still should have two lots of two, one lot of four or one lot of three and a one week in the summer hols? If he's taking her for two weeks there are still four weeks, I'm not sure I see what the problem is?

@RubySapphireEmerald

1. Your story is pointless. Your DS did not want to spend time with his dad,you made him to and once he was finally allowed to choose(at some arbitrary point decided by you) he chose to not see his dad. You'd have a point if it was a story about what a wonderful relationship they have now and how grateful he is you encouraged it. As it is it's a story about you ignoring yours DS's wishes for several years.

1. In case you missed it,the dad lives in the UK,he could see his daughter a lot more if he wanted and be a part of her life and interests. He chose one afternoon a week.

1. Again,he could've spent Christmas with her in the UK ,he simply chose not to.

1. A decent father would want their kid to be happy and comfortable at a special time like Christmas, not deny Santa exists,refusing comfort things and basically saying "tough".

1. OP hasn't had a holiday with her DD in years(ever!?!) due to accommodating holidays with the father,she's not the bad guy.

Children pick up languages quickly, and going regularly will improve her Romanian and help her communicate with her grandparents and wider family.

How many languages do you speak?

Not speaking the language is not an excuse not to go.

She doesn't need an 'excuse', if she doesn't want to go she doesn't have to. But a language barrier is a problem.

I am glad he has agreed to the sock for her sake.

I am on the fence with this, largely because several things in your posts ring alarm bells with me for some reason. Things like, he is only proud of her when his mum is around, hates England, she is half Romanian whether she likes it or not and Romanian people are more educated than her.

There things, coupled with the fact that she is now 9 and he suddenly seems to want to take her abroad more.

While I don't want to alarm you too much, are you sure that he would always bring her back or is he doing more trips and coming back so that he can eventually take her and not return her?!

Is her passport fully British?

It may actually be worth formalising dates/lengths of visits in court OP - at least until she is old enough to decide for herself whether she travels or not.

@PumpkinPie2016 her passport is fully British, i think he’s not doing anything like that, I do understand those thoughts though because I always have things like that In the back of mind about everything but I try not to let them over take my actions IYKWIM otherwise I’d never go out! Ha... but when she was 2 I taught her my phone number and our address to the tune of twinkle twinkle little star so i always knew she knew where I was.... sounds crazy but When she was younger and hadn’t been away from me I was so worried about everything. She is very confident and determined and so I don’t think she would stay/go quietly now.

If I thought for a second that He might not bring her back I wouldn’t let her go.

@Shambu I think being around others who are all speaking another language is hard, when I was 18/19 going over there I was already low confidence but the whole time was horrible.

When she was two I went over there with her so she could see them and stayed with her there so she wouldn’t be too scared to go on her own with her dad as she got older

Some children absolutely do realise it willean a complete breakdown of the relationship of they refuse to visit, and that's what they want.*

Because the parents have created that atmosphere, playing off on one another.

OP I'm glad he is taking your suggestions on board now. Your idea about singing your address is a fantastic idea. I might steal it lol. I hope all goes well for you and your DD

My parents are divorced and i hated splitting christmas but was made to and so i agree that if your daughter is anxious about it she shouldn't be made to go anywhere!
Although i disagree with a lot of people about the santa thing, regardless of whether she spends christmas in romania or not surely its a good time to let her down gently? Believing at that age does unfortunately sometimes cause teasing. I can't imagine doing an elf on the shelf for a 9 year old if younger siblings weren't around so I'm not surprised her dad was against it!

Europe has Christmas traditions... usually our Christmas Eve, and there’s grampus for the naughty children. Church can be a central part and it’s really lovely... candles, bringing baby Jesus to the crib etc. Your ex is a selfish git... he could explain and make it exciting. And bring some uk traditions to the mix as of course Santa is magical. So look up traditions, tell him to get onboard. If he won’t Tell he’s a twat and if he can’t be bothered making Christmas special then she’s staying home and you will. If he’s nicer about it encourage her to go, if he’s not then sod it. Either way I wouldn’t make her tbh, and especially not if he’s going to ruin subsequent Christmas’. Ps you are being bullied/far too accommodating... just because you have her most means you have all the work, don’t allow him to be Disney dad xx

Thanks @Lollypop701 I think that’s a great idea to look up traditions, I will do that and if doesn’t make it special and exciting that’s going to be his loss.

@Loftyswops988 I just go by her tbh... the day I can get rid of elf the better but she starts mentioning his grand arrival with excitement so she still believes in him and we have a 4yo at home too... and a10yr old who suspect may be going along with it but he does cry when he gets a video from Santa.. I always do the pnp Santa app thing... I know they might be teased but I do teach them to not care what other people say or think and I think it’s great that they are still innocent in a lot of ways. I do think it might be time to let the 10 yr old know before high school but I think that might be a whole nother thread there

When they do find out I’m sure they’ll enjoy being on the other side creating the magic for the younger one