To think a significant minority of MN users don't respect SAHMs?

[Bumpitybumper]

During my time on this forum I have seen the following views being expressed about SAHMs:

• SAHMs are bad feminists and therefore not entitled to any kind of opinion regarding feminist issues. Particular objections are raised about SAHMs having thoughts about feminism in the workplace irrespective of their previous experiences when they were employed.

- SAHMs are sponging financially off their DPs and just don't want to get a job. Many posters seem to think it is impossible for a SAHM's non financial contributions to equal or exceed the financial contribution provided by the breadwinning partner. SAHMs therefore deserve less than there working partners in any break up/divorce.

• SAHMs should be responsible for all housework regardless of capacity to fit this in during the day. If a SAHM struggles to get things done due to ages and temprament of children they are told they are just not trying hard enough.

-SAHMs should do the vast majority, if not all the night wakings with babies and young children. This usually extends to women on maternity leave and holds true even if SAHM is shattered and her working partner is relatively well rested.

There are loads more examples too that I can't think of right now, but I see it pretty much on a daily basis. Is this just me or is the quite a lot of disdain for SAHMs on MN?

No it wasn't aimed at you personally kappa just the attitude of those who are supposedly happy being working mums whilst being sneery towards SAHMs. If they're happy with their choices what's the bashing about?

Unless they're not happy.

do feel there are two reasons for the nasty attitude (and this goes both ways in terms of judging SAHM and WM) either the person feels they are being judged and defensively judges back or the person isn't happy with their lifestyle and wants to put other people down as a reaction.

Mine is definitely the former - totally! Had some really vile comments about going back to work full time after my last child (always p/t or at home with the older ones) and it’s definitely affected my judgment back.

My cousin is the ultimate feminist. She's 11 years older than me and most of the feminist views I developed growing up have come from her. She still often says things that really make me think. She's also a stay at home mum. Granted, her home is a farm where she does the majority of the work, but she still considers herself to be a SAHM as she spends all day at home with her son. Her view (and mine) is that one of the most important aspects of feminism is that people (particularly women) being able to make choices such as staying at home and not being judged for those choices.

IRL no one cared if I went back FT, PT or not at all. Prejudice is definitely more prominent on MN.

Mine is definitely the former - totally! Had some really vile comments about going back to work full time after my last child (always p/t or at home with the older ones) and it’s definitely affected my judgment back.

I think that's understandable, I have heard some pretty sneery comments from SAHM to WM and I believer that also comes from a place of insecurity. Most people I know would ideally love to both work in a fulfilling career and spend a lot of time with their DC. In reality most people end up with some compromise with time with their DC or the amount of time the spend on their career losing out. A lot of people feel insecure about whatever they're missing out on. It would be nice if we could be more supportive of each other rather than sneering at each other.

Wth does feminisim have to do with it?! If a woman chooses to be a SAHP then good for her. I'd suggest that finances dictating that a parent has to go back to work removes the entire element of choice for either side!!

I'm a long term (12 years encounting) SAHM from a teaching career, and a prolific mumsnet poster. I can't recall ever feeling judged about my SAHM status on mumsnet.

Meh, I can't get worked up about this.

I'm very happy with my choices. It's never occurred to me I should feel judged about it, so I guess I never look for any such judgement.

Surely being a feminist is also about respecting a woman’s right to choose? For some women that might be being a CEO, for others it might mean being a SAHM.

My personal view on it all is that your gender shouldn’t hold you back in any way from certain careers (so totally agree with all the stuff about women should be in the boardroom etc) BUT I also believe that in some ways young girls/women are almost being fed the message that if they DON’T happen to want to have a high flying career/go back to Work after kids that they are somehow letting women down...

As I said, I think what needs to be encouraged and campaigned for is choice. We are in danger of going too far the other way. Instead of women feeling like they must stay at home and cook, clean and look after the children, that they now feel they must have a hugely successful career or they are letting the side down.

Excellent post firstworld Agree with you 100%

I don't disrespect or respect SAHMs.
I do wonder what they mean when they talk about all that housework they have to do, all the admin, school drop offs and pick-ups, doctor's appointment, school meetings etc they have to do. I wonder because working parents do ALL that - and still go to work.

Heck, I'm a single working mom - and I'm still able to do all those things it takes to run my home and care for my kids.

It's their choice to SAH and if it works for their family, great. No idea why I should 'respect' them specially.

I do wonder what they mean when they talk about all that housework they have to do, all the admin, school drop offs and pick-ups, doctor's appointment, school meetings etc they have to do. I wonder because working parents do ALL that - and still go to work

Yeah because all us SAHM’s do that... spend all our time moaning about all that stuff we have to do. Or did you mean some SAHM’s do that?
Mine are both pre school anyway, but I’ve never once gone on about all the stuff I have to do.

insideoutsider So while you're at work, you're also running around after small children at home? if you're not at home, and your child is being cared for elsewhere, of course you are not running around after small children at home, and nor will you have quite as much housework to do when you return home from work, because nobody's been there. It's a lot of housework when you're a sahm and they're there, making mess constantly, needing things, wanting things, it's a full time job, you just pay someone to do it for you during the day. Which is fine. Just don't suggest that SAHMs do fuck all.

I wonder because working parents do ALL that - and still go to work.

Having done both I think it's a case of degrees. When a SAHM I ran my house not just well , but like a hotel, I did more baking, more elaborate meals, better meal planning, deeper cleaning and sorting, and lots of 'extras' and finishing touches, spent more time with DS.

When I worked my home was still reasonably presentable, still baked, still cooked, but the degree to which I could spend time on it all, and how often everything could be done was compromised, I just couldn't do everything to the same degree and have any time for myself without burning out, and sometimes I had to let things go altogether.

It was a case of doing most things good enough vs doing everything well. Being fully immersed vs being on multi-task mode all the time.

The feminist angle comes on when you ask why there aren’t equal numbers of stay at home dads, or dads going part time. Or indeed why dads are never asked if they’ll be going back to work after kids...

Because work is still expecting women to facilitate men at every turn is the answer.

BUT.

That says nothing about the individual. If a woman and her family makes a free choice to be a sahm that’s her choice and her business. Ditto if she chooses to work, full time or part time or whatever.

On an individual level, we all just choose what we think is best within the restrictions we have. And most us of us do have restrictions, few of us have enough money to do exactly as we please.

Wohm and sahms are just as good/brilliant/average/crap as each other. Neither has a moral advantage and neither is better than the other. It pisses me off to see this debate rehashed again and again.

Both are fine. Neither is better. Neither is worse.

"I think people often are trying to defend their own decisions by knocking other people’s"

Yep - bigging oneself up by dragging other people down. As the saying goes, blowing others' candles out doesn't make your own glow any brighter.

do feel there are two reasons for the nasty attitude (and this goes both ways in terms of judging SAHM and WM) either the person feels they are being judged and defensively judges back or the person isn't happy with their lifestyle and wants to put other people down as a reaction.

Mine is definitely the former - totally! Had some really vile comments about going back to work full time after my last child (always p/t or at home with the older ones) and it’s definitely affected my judgment back
Waves to kappaKappa Nobody has the right to question your family choices.
I'm on the other end of this - getting a lot of pressure from acquaintances to go back to work whilst busily overlooking the fact I have a disabled child with a multitude of therapy appointments, a husband away for weeks, sometimes months, at a time, and no family back up or opportunities for out of school care.

I won't judge you if you don't judge me . - I actually think this should be the new MN strapline (with a neat carve out for parking issues and bridezillas).

I think one of the things that really gets me about the whole anti-SAHM sentiment is it weirdly seems to extend to mothers on maternity leave too. When I first became a mother it was the most difficult and exhausting life adjustment I've ever had to make. My DH struggled too, but I will never forget the physical and emotional challenges of being a mother trying to breastfeed and recover from birth with this baby that seemed so dependent on me. To see threads where posters start harassing new mothers to do more of the house work because they're on maternity leave or to do all the night feeds so the DP can get a good night's sleep even though the mother is beyond exhausted. It's almost as if in some people's minds of you are not actively participating in the workforce at any given time then you are instantly inferior to somebody that is, especially if that person is financially supporting you in anyway. It's all just very sad

People, mainly women, cannot win: if you work you are neglectful, if you don’t work you are lazy and if you go part time you don’t do your job properly.
So you have to do what is best for you and your family because whatever decision you make someone will criticise it.

@Namechanger22 - This week, I really did think I'd make a fantastic SAHM too! I've had several days off work, kids in school so when I dropped them off, I just binged watched some boxsets and ate popcorn and donuts. I didn't tidy much at all the first 2 days! (I'm not saying that's what SAHMs do btw - it's what I did this week).

On a serious note, I could only do this every now and then though - I would need to go out to work and feel like I'm contributing to society - aside from raising my own kids and 'supporting' a husband / partner (if I had one). So, no jealousy here.

@KittenBeast - I didn't mean SAHM do nothing at home - you might have misunderstood me. I guess I'm speaking more about my own circumstances in comparison to other SAHMs with similar responsibilities. IE our kids are in school - so we both have hours where nothing needs to be done for the kids. Re-read my post in that context. Kids in school but still needing to do all those things. One of us stays home, one of us goes to work. All the stuff still needs to get done. That's what I mean.

But stretching further to what you say about running after young kids, at 5.15pm when I get home, I still need to do all bathing, feeding, reading, looking after, raising, bills, admin, all night getting up and feeding (if necessary), bathing, taking them to nursery AND WORK.

Whatever the case, no reason why anyone needs their own special respect. We all do what works for us, right?

this thread has made me have a long hard think and I realise that I judge people who are lazy.

I know a couple of SAHMs who have school age children, cleaner and gardeners and spend most of their time on leisure activities. This is all very nice for them, but I think it shows a shocking lack of ambition. I'm also reminded of the education threads where everyone wants their child to be pushed to achieve the best of their abilities - I don't think essentially doing "nothing" for several hours a day is the SAHM achieving the best of their abilities - should we stop aspiring to do this once we get to 18?

(I'm equally judgy of working people who swan around at work and do very little btw).

but I think it shows a shocking lack of ambition

Not everyone is ambitious. If they’re happy, what’s the issue? One fewer person competing with you :)

They provide employment for a gardener and a cleaner and a nanny. That’s a positive benefit to society.

If I won the lottery tomorrow I’d get a gardening crew in to relandscape our place, I’d get a cleaner and I’d hand my notice in from a yacht in Tahiti.

I’m judgey of work swanners too but I think that’s a different thing - they’re paid to be thetecand that sort of thing means everyone else has to work harder. I once worked with someone who spent her entire day in the web shopping and it increased the rest of the team’s workload - we all loathed her.

I wonder because working parents do ALL that - and still go to work.
To be quite honest we prioritise our DCs and our house deteriorates dramatically during the week. We (both of us) do the basics and that’s it. Hoovering and proper cleaning get done at the weekend (usually )
I am not a fan of housework and if I’m honest again it is probably the main reason I would not choose to be a SAHM because I’d feel I’d have no excuse.
So it gets done, but to a lesser degree and we have much less time to spend making endless phone calls, visiting family and socialising etc than my sister and BIL where he is a SAHD. They seem to be able to spend months listing, selecting and wrapping Xmas presents for example, it’s a big rush for us. On the other hand DH and I have a very equal relationship. Horses for courses. (Provided we get a days notice of visitors during the week so we can make it presentable )

but I think it shows a shocking lack of ambition

Depends on the field a bit. Some careers can easily be picked up again after a few years, others require extensive retraining or re-registering and a start at a junior level.

Yeah but you always remember the most extreme opinions... it is a minority of people. But yeah have seen SAHMs called prostitutes etc...
Ridiculous view. SAHMs are doing a job because if they werent doing it then someone else would actually be being paid to do it... either cleaners, childminders or whatever... so how can anyone say it is not a job? and even with older kids it applies with after school clubs and cleaners etc Also you have to factor in how much more the working partner can devote to their career if there is someone there on tap for childcare and emergency childcare and organising things at home.... which means the working partner will be capable of earning more money than otherwise... which means the stay at home partner is responsible for generating some of that extra income.