To think a significant minority of MN users don't respect SAHMs?

[Bumpitybumper]

During my time on this forum I have seen the following views being expressed about SAHMs:

• SAHMs are bad feminists and therefore not entitled to any kind of opinion regarding feminist issues. Particular objections are raised about SAHMs having thoughts about feminism in the workplace irrespective of their previous experiences when they were employed.

- SAHMs are sponging financially off their DPs and just don't want to get a job. Many posters seem to think it is impossible for a SAHM's non financial contributions to equal or exceed the financial contribution provided by the breadwinning partner. SAHMs therefore deserve less than there working partners in any break up/divorce.

• SAHMs should be responsible for all housework regardless of capacity to fit this in during the day. If a SAHM struggles to get things done due to ages and temprament of children they are told they are just not trying hard enough.

-SAHMs should do the vast majority, if not all the night wakings with babies and young children. This usually extends to women on maternity leave and holds true even if SAHM is shattered and her working partner is relatively well rested.

There are loads more examples too that I can't think of right now, but I see it pretty much on a daily basis. Is this just me or is the quite a lot of disdain for SAHMs on MN?

Leigha if she can afford not to work and doesn't want to, then why should she? Work is what people do to support their lives or give them satisfation - if your ex's mum has her life sorted to her own satisfation and isn't asking you for anything, then what she does is her own affair.
Roundtheworld education is never wasted. It helps create well rounded, interesting human beings. You cannot narrow its worth to being no more than means of securing employment!

I do not think my education has been in any way wasted. In fact I have continued with my education whilst being a SAHM (currently doing an OU masters).
My education allowed me to have a lucrative career pre children. It allowed me to save/invest a decent sum of money. It has allowed me to volunteer in a role related to my career. It has made me a well rounded person with educated opinions on all sorts of topics. It will allow me to go back to work when my children are at school.
How is that a waste?

I do think SAHMS have wasted their education

Maybe in your field but not in mine. 142 people applied for my last job in the pharma industry - there is an oversupply of people with my qualifications. And to be honest I would have known that even without the 142 number, because if I was so essential to the economy then someone would offer me part time work.
Ah well. In the event of mass conscription or a flu epidemic, I stand ready

Anyone who has such an instrumental view of the benefits of education has clearly not grasped its fundamental principles themselves. A failure to become broad-minded is definitely a wasted education...

^^ what frogsoup said.

@loveintokyo I agree with everything you wrote. For me I think it is like the opposite of feminism when we start judging each other's situations/choices and lose the focus on the system that makes all these choices so hard for all of us.
For me, I always intended to go back to work full time after my kids were a bit older and actually did go back part time for about a year but then my DH got made redundant and couldn't find a similar position in the UK so we ended up moving countries and it would have been difficult for me to find a similar position here (or anywhere, I was lucky to have the job I had). We did talk about doing long distance but it would have been very expensive and the kids would have seen very little of DH, and I didn't fancy looking after twins alone for long stretches with no family support.

Education is not just a means whereby we can show those closest to us how witty, opinionated and well read we are. We educate ourselves not just for selfish reasons but to actually be of help to the world and a failure to even fathom this is a wasted education frogsoup. Learning and then not maximising the benefits of the learning is a waste, there are millions of women around the world who would give their right arm for that education and actually assist the world with it. Maybe that’s why men get ahead - they understand that you do not waste your talents or your opportunities.

Learning and then not maximising the benefits of the learning is a waste

I do not believe that taking 5 years out of the paid workforce to care for my pre school aged children (while also volunteering and contributing to society in a variety of ways) is a waste of my education.

@LoveInTokyo I agree, I think all this divisive infighting just distracts women from asking men to step up to the plate. That's partially why I started this thread as I think for as long as we don't confront the issue then it just stays there bubbling under the surface. Sly digs here, unnecessary comments there. Reading some of the posts I can better understand why some people feel hostile to SAHMs and where their reservations come from. Hopefully those posters can also read some of the thought provoking posts from SAHMs so that the improved understanding is mutual.

Who said anything about selfish reasons? Education is a collective good for all sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with employment. And the idea that most jobs represent a 'good to the world' doesn't stand up to the most basic of scrutiny. There are many ways of using your education and doing good in the world, and only some of them (perhaps even a minority) involved paid employment.

(that was to roundtheworld)

Roundtheworld how many people’s paid employment do you genuinely think is a ‘help to the world’? As I mentioned I had a very lucrative career pre children. I worked in banking, not saving lives. I do far more good to society at the moment (governor at a local primary school, voluntary work with senior citizens etc) than I did at work. The houses I was working previously were incompatible with any form of voluntary/community work.

*hours

Round you seem to think that maximising the benefits of learning and helping the world is only achieved by getting a paid job. That is such a narrow view of life.
Education helps us to become thoughtful, to understand how and why people behave as they do, it enables us to question and challenge. We use it in every aspect of our lives, from political choices to how we raise our children.

I have to add that my eduction came in very handy when my older dc were doing GCSEs and A levels and needed additional teaching.

I have made use of my education. I studied Social Administration and French. The Social Admin included a year studying social work, which got me interested in women's issues, and that has continued to this day, now working in a project to help Central Asian women. It also gave me an understanding of what social workers do, which has been very useful in the last few years when going through the adoption process.

So no, I really don't think my education has gone to waste.

I did another degree in my 5 years as a SAHM. It was great!

TheFallenMadonna I have done a post graduate diploma and now a masters. I’m really appreciating the opportunity to further my education!

I am that MN social pariah: the sahm with school age children.

Like most other posters, we sourced the best possible childcare that we could afford for our children, which in our case happened to be me.

Now my youngest is in school which means that I take care of all the housework, maintenance and what MN calls “life admin” in the mornings, leaving evenings and weekends for relaxation, travel and family time. I could work, and we could use weekends and evenings for doing all that other stuff. I could spend an hour or more a day sitting in heavy traffic, working for minimum wage, stressing about the dc if they are sick, missing sports days and concerts, and they could do less extra curricular activities. We’d all have a drop in our standard of living for little or no extra money. I’m truly perplexed why I should do this, and why I am such an object of derision if I don’t?

I wouldn’t advise anyone to be a sahm now (that I’ve read lots of MN) because even if you earn less than childcare now it’s an investment in your future earning capacity to keep working at least part time if that is possible at all. I wish I had understood that when I was making life changing decisions through a haze of emotion. My career is well and truly smashed now, and with that in mind, I’ll be using the next couple of years to update and upgrade my qualifications. I don’t need anyone’s validation here, but I genuinely don’t understand why I would be a better feminist/mother/human being to work for the sake of working. Particularly when I can use my available resources to optimize future earning potential, and perhaps my quantifiable social contribution

I can see that working is hugely important in the modern British psyche (praise and criticism of the Royals seems to hinge on how much work they do). Is there any point at which it is considered acceptable to not work - if you can support yourself without drawing on the resources of the state; or, has an octogenarian earned the right to leisure?

I’m not brave enough to post this under my regular username

To those who think it's all about "supporting the man" - it's not, it's about supporting your family unit. And yes, of course both parents can work and manage everything but it often comes at a cost, and not just a financial one. For me, that cost was too high - I didn't love my job anyway but if I was to stay in it post DC both me and DH would be frequently travelling for work, both have long commutes etc. Doable? Of course it is, but our family life would have suffered greatly for it. So I cut back, took a PT job instead (but would easily be able to return FT if I wanted), DH has been able to progress rapidly in his field, and because I have a bit of time during the week I can take care of all the family admin, leaving weekends as lovely leisure time.

I haven't done this solely so that my DH can progress in his career - we made the decision together based on what is best for us. And it most definitely is - no regrets here and that's all that matters!

As others have said, mothering is not valued due to our patriarchal society. Life is not Best enjoyed when only viewed in monetary terms!

People can do what they want with their lives and no one has a right to tell them otherwise.

Equally, people have a right to think what they like, so if you ask their opinions, they have a right to say.

The idea that no one has a right to have a particular opinion is bizarre. If you are happy with where you are in life, that is great but then why seek others' opinions, just enjoy it.

Tooteary your comment was not about paying childcare workers minimum wage. It was trying to shame me for not paying half my salary to my nanny. Despite that you have no idea how much my salary is or how much I pay my nanny (certainly not minimum wage). I did say in an earlier post how I thought that this work wasn’t valued enough so not sure why the nasty comments.

That’s lucky for you if you can afford not to worry about your paypacket. That doesn’t apply to everyone. You’re also lucky that you can get flexi working - again not available to everyone. My job is pretty much available full time or not at all. I did actually not work at all for a time when my dcs were young but I can’t afford to do that forever.

What surprises me though is that you seem to think nursery is harmful but then are sending your child there. After having a go at me for not sharing my worldly goods with my nanny.

I was lucky enough to afford one to one for a long time for my dcs. Now they have some nursery/school and some one to one. Your suggestion that I am somehow damaging their brain is bonkers.

We all do the best we can. I work, parent and do my best to maintain a good relationship with my dcs dad. Thank goodness I never married him (and thank goodness I don’t have to give half my assets to my nanny) or it would be much harder financially for my little family.

I've posted twice on this thread about why I judge SOME SAHMs (and also some other people who are not SAHMs).
having thought some more I think that actually I judge people

... who are lazy, where this has a detrimental affect on others.

So I judge my mother, who was a SAHM from the time she had DC, but who did little housework so we lived in a hovel, and who expected her daughter (not son) to pick up some of the slack from age 12, and was so self absorbed that actually she spent very little time with her DC.

And I judge my SIL, who is a SAHM, because she thinks "it's important for the DC to have a parent around after school and in the holidays" (her youngest child is 9) but what she actually means is that she wants an easy life to pursue her hobbies and has no desire to work - meanwhile my DB is tired and stressed working to support the family in a "certain lifestyle" and would dearly like to take a pay cut and a job without a long commute and spend more time with his family - only this is not possible while SIL remains a SAHM.

for the sake, of balance, I would also say that I judge colleagues who I have worked with who either (managers) delegate all their jobs to others, or do so little or work at such a poor quality, that others are left to pick up the slack.

If you're a SAHM and you, your partner and your children are all very happy and getting huge benefits from that arrangement, then I don't judge you at all :)

Red,

I totally agree with your perspective with the caveat that I also judge people who treat their children in the same way as their career and thus live vicariously through their children’s achievements. I think this is deeply damaging.

I do judge my DH's ex, who has been a 'SAHM' since before they even had children. There is only 1 SC still at school (15). She claims every benefit going, plus gets more in maintenance than I earn as a full time teacher. She has a degree, but absolutely no urge to work. No reason, no children with special needs, she's perfectly fit & healthy. She doesn't attend school events, or take SC to any out of school hobbies (never has). She doesn't run a club/volunteer. I wonder how she's going to manage when the youngest goes to Uni, as maintenance will stop then.

I don't judge people staying at home when children are younger, or if there is a real need to (being a carer, or being unwell), or if they are doing something useful, but to be at home and do nothing, not even go to parents evenings/sports days/ concerts etc?