Am I being unreasonable to be angry with my son’s uni tutors?

[Ladymacbethshandwash]

My 18 year old son is coming to the end of his first year of a performing arts degree. Since he was a little boy he wanted to become an actor so this was the natural route for him to take.

He has struggled with certain aspects of the course, namely the movement side as he is 6 foot 3 and as graceful as bambi on ice. He has failed his two movement assessments and passed his acting assessments. Today at his end of year tutorial his tutors told him he will never make it as an actor. They bluntly destroyed his dreams and sent him on his way. My 18 year old son is away from home, distraught because in his opinion his dream is over, his life is finished. He won’t come home and he doesn’t want to speak to me. Why oh why could they have not been a little more careful about the language they used? I know I’m his Mum, so I am obviously biased but he does have something, he’s funny, confident, handsome and he does have acting ability. Unfortunately he doesn’t believe this now, he’s so low I don’t know what to do.

If the course has mandatory modules which need to be passed in the first year in order to proceed then a student who fails them will not be able to progress. This should be spelled out in the course prospectus but students don't always take enough notice and it can be hard making the transition from school where there is likely to be lots of support (plus at home from parents too) to university where you are expected to be self directed. My ds did that with a math course this year, thought it was boring / didn't matter, dropped it for something more enjoyable and then discovered it was required, and so is taking it again over the summer as otherwise he won't have passed his first year even though he has enough credits. I was annoyed with him, not his university, but the difference is that he has a way forward which he told us about at the same time he told us there was a problem.

ds is dyslexic but accommodations at his university are only given with a formal diagnosis and the assessment he had at 7 apparently doesn't count anymore. His profs were sympathetic and as accommodating as they can be but expected him to go see the disability support team and get a new assessment organised. The OP's son needs to know how his university manages that side of things, the rules on retakes and appeals. All should be on the website and there will be support teams who can assist too (either university or student union run).

A degree with no grades? I'm very curious about which university this is.

Caribou58

I'm a nurse and some nursing courses (clinical practice) don't have actual grades. They're just pass/fail.

I’m surprised it wasn’t filmed. I recently did both an assessed moot and assessed presentation for my law degree and even though the tutors marking it were in the room they were still filmed for external moderation

It's his first year, so they'll almost certainly pass him, it'd look bad on the university and lecturers if he didn't..

Sounds like they've gone a bit too far but are just trying to push him. As a practising artist now, through out my degree I'd have and see tutors tearing mine and others works to shreds and it wasn't completely uncommon to see fellow students coming out of tutorials trying to hold back tears.

The arts industry is tough, give him a few days to calm down as he will feel like his world's crumbling but if this really is what he wants then he'll come around with probably even more determination to succeed, is he really going to let their comments stop him fulfilling his dream?

Reassure him that he knows he's good enough or he wouldn't be on the course in the first place or had previous work and to go back next year even stronger and stick it to em!

Sorry to hear this, OP. I trained at a drama school and have been working in the industry since graduating.

I agree that movement is an important part of training, but if it isn’t a musical theatre dance module then the movement is more about using your body as an acting tool - being willing to become aware of your body and step out of your own habits to take on a new character. If he’s been actively resistant to this rather than just being a bit crap then that will have been a problem, and it will be a part of any drama school course.

However, openness works both ways - if you expect your students to be open to new things you have to be kind with it. At drama schools can be intense places where it feels like the whole world rests on one person’s good opinion.

It isn’t the same environment as a regular degree so the resilience required isn’t the same. The relationship between students and tutors can have a different dynamic.

There probably are many different options for him and I hope he feels better soon.

"Because we don’t value the arts as a set of knowledge and skills and expertise." Very true. I have a few friends who are published authors (and hope to be myself possibly) they are not self published but have agents and editors and are published by well known houses. Yet they frequently get people thinking it's easy and 'everyone has a book inside them' etc one thing the ease of self publishing on eg Amazon has shown is no not everyone who THINKS they're a good writer is. It takes effort, study, lots of reading (in your chosen genre, other genres and theory) and practice.

"Easy reading is damn hard writing" Nathaniel Hawthorne.

"I'm pretty sure there are several actors that will have been told the same." And has been said NUMEROUS times on this thread 100,000's of artistes that were told this and WEREN'T successful. The reason these anecdotes are famous is because they are the exception NOT the rule.

Maisypops totally agree! So true of many uni students now. When I went the first time and it was mainly my generation we understood it's not down to the lecturers to do the work/effort for us. When I returned 15 years later as a mature student especially for the first semester a lot expected to be spoon fed and led by the nose to the 'right' answer. The point of uni is INDEPENDENT study, you're an adult by this point. If you don't attend the lectures, seminars and workshops, if you don't do the primary reading let alone the secondary you're gonna get shit results and possibly drop out! It's not rocket science! Unfortunately the attitude (parents and students) is 'I'm paying for this degree' NO you're paying for a place at uni which provides lecturers, information and materials...the knowledge and skills are up to you to gain/develop.

One such student came to me bitching they were off the course - the only reason I even knew who she was, was because she'd been in my small group for the ice breaking exercises on the first day! She'd not been to one core lecture and I'd never seen her in any seminars or workshops!

"Employers now blame us in the universities for some young graduates being unprepared for the rough & tumble of working life." They shouldn't but I understand their frustrations. A friend of mine is a nurse trainer as part of her role but she's hospital based. She gets nursing students in their final year, by which time they SHOULD be almost ready to work! Instead she's increasingly finding they complain constantly, consider many tasks beneath them and don't understand what the real life role (especially when newly qualified) entails! She gets horrified faces when she asks them to sort a bedpan or do obs or feed an incapacitated patient. And told "we are told that's not our job".

I too am very surprised It wasn't filmed. They usually are at HE level. And no written feedback or grades? Are you sure he's being entirely truthful there?

I agree that movement is an important part of training, but if it isn’t a musical theatre dance module then the movement is more about using your body as an acting tool - being willing to become aware of your body and step out of your own habits to take on a new character. If he’s been actively resistant to this rather than just being a bit crap then that will have been a problem, and it will be a part of any drama school course.

This, very much. And this is an area where I suspect expectations are actually a lot higher than they were in the days of Stephen Fry/Hugh Grant/insert any other late middle-age actor who made a career on a university degree before actors were expected to have a lot of training and before there were thousands of candidates for every part. Those days are gone: any agent will have a choice between hundreds of youngsters all with similar looks and similar backgrounds. They don't need to pick one that hasn't made the absolute most of any part of training provided.

However, openness works both ways - if you expect your students to be open to new things you have to be kind with it. At drama schools can be intense places where it feels like the whole world rests on one person’s good opinion.

But also very much this. I am surprised by the lack of feedback, don't think that sounds good at all. And the thing about the evaluation questionnaire is absolutely shocking (speaking as someone who's just had the worst evaluation of their career and felt crushed by it). If they are a university drama course, I would expect the tutors to be held to the same standards as the rest of the university.

But cory maybe the tutor was too bust dealing with an upset student that they simply forgot.

Hell, we've had student voice questionnaires and I've made a simple mistake forgetting to do them one lesson because something came up with a student.

It's very easy to fall into the trap of 'I am amazing and I will make it. Movement classes are pointless and activites are below me. I 'only' asked a question about yhe course. My tutors don't like me. They said my entire career was over and I will never make it'.

We see variations on that week in week out in schools: Mrs Blogs doesn't like me. She failed my test for no reason. My mum's complaining about Mr Smith because he is picking on me (has to tell child to do what they should). My dad is annoyed that I'm under target in Maths because Mr Brown hasn't taught thr content properly (Mr Brown has written the same piece of feedback on the work for weeks but entitled child doesn't think they have to listen). I would have done so much better if they'd not given us that stupid revision session and instead told us what was on the exam. Miss Green said I was going to fail at life because she's such a bitch (Miss Green actually said 'if you continue to be lazy and not put the work in then you'll find yourself without the grades you want to set you up in life'). Mr Kipling keeps being mean about me and told me I will never pass English because I'm stupid (Mr Kipling actually said that some students needed to stop making stupid mistakes and stop being sloppy e.g. not using basic punctuation or capital letters).

I was at a conservatoire drama school, so a bit different, but assessments weren’t filmed. It was about a decade ago, though.

Maisy, suppose it all depends on what actually happened. Forgetting the questionnaires altogether (and coming rushing back in a cold sweat)- yes, we've all been there.

Leaving one student out- not ok, if that actually happened, as in tutor deliberately walking past him.

Of course, it is equally possible that the questionnaires were being passed round the classroom and he simply wasn't paying attention and so didn't take one. That does happen too.
(I've had one student email me once a week in a very curt and abrupt manner about information I supposedly haven't handed out when I can easily show that have a) mentioned it in my lecture b) mentioned it again in seminar c) posted it on Blackboard d) sent an email announcement directly to his inbox).

Every student was given a questionnaire at the end of their tutorial, my son was not given one. I had a long chat with him last night and he went into more detail about what happened and quite frankly it sounds like they ripped him to shreds for an hour. So for instance after one of his acting assessments he had a one to one with tutor who had been teacher him this particular module. The feedback he got was his performance was fantastic and his tutor was really pleased with him, everything was spot on...well done! In his end of year tutorial the feedback the course leader gave him was...it was alright, not great but alright. He mentioned that he had found the first term very difficult because there was some bitchiness directed towards him because his movement wasn't great and there were people within the group who refused to work with him because he would their performances down. The answer, you mentioned this at your first tutorial and you were the only one to highlight any bitchiness, this can create distrust within the group. He also got, it's not our job to ask you what's wrong if you miss lessons or don't seem enthusiastic. One tutor at the end of year assessment told him she writes notes about all the students, personal things that you wouldn't expect...why would you even say that! I think he's come to the end of the road, but he's determined to see it through and fight for his place.

The evaluation situation is still not clear: does he mean the tutor walked round the room handing out the questionnaires but said "you're not getting one" to him? Or that s/he accidentally walked past him and he didn't say anything? Or that they were passed round and he didn't take one? Or that they were meant to pick them up and he didn't?

Because no 1 would be totally their fault (and would be very poor practice), all the others would be his fault.

About the bitchiness, hard to tell. Depends on how he raised it, also on why they did not want to work with him. If he worked really hard and just didn't have the talent, that was mean and the tutor should have intervened.

If he held back and refused to work his hardest because he thought things were "cringey", then I am afraid I do see why they didn't want their own work ruined and risk failing because of a poor group dynamic. Dd has told me how she dreads working with certain students because they seem to think trying hard is beneath them and of course it's impossible to get a scene going well if one person isn't pulling their weight.

"He also got, it's not our job to ask you what's wrong if you miss lessons or don't seem enthusiastic"

This is a bit confusing. Has he actually been missing lessons for no good reason? Why would he have done this? And what does he do when he does "not seem enthusiastic"- remembering that this is group work, so by not engaging he is ruining it for everybody else.

I think that rather than trying to sort it out indirectly via Mumsnet - despite the fact that there's some good experience about Performing Arts courses among posters - your son would be well-advised to contact Student advice services at his institution about how to move forward.

There are things about this (indirect) account that sound odd. But then I think the questions would be a) what are the written guidelines about how teaching and assessment is delivered, b) to what extent have these procedures been followed/not followed. Also c) to what extent has your son been complying with what has been asked of him. Plus d) when there have been difficulties has he been trying to resolve them by using the recommended procedures.

At my conservatoire we had a grading called ‘proccess’ which was about 30% of overall mark. It included how well you worked with others, how hard you tried, where you good in rehearsal, how professional you are.

It was there in theory so that if your performance went tits up on the night you could still get a fair grade.
I’m practise it made group dynamics very difficult because a falling out within the class could seriously impact your mark. It also meant that the lecturers had a strange power over you.

I wonder if this is why other classmates wouldn’t work with him.

The end of year tutorials were individual at the end of the tutorials each student was given a questionnaire. First term he was full of enthusiasm, as you are but he was rubbish at movement. Some students in the group took exception as mentioned before. They ended up ostracising him the group, turning their backs on him, ignoring him in conversation. He started having panic attacks and horrendous insomnia, so he missed some lessons.

He sounds as if he has been quite fragile for quite some time while doing this course.

The picture being painted is of horrible fellow-students and horrible tutors. Also of horrible people in the outside world - you mentioned a homophobic attack.

Had he communicated the difficulties he was having to tutors and asked for advice about how to tackle them?

Is he really in the state where he can continue, without getting more help to enable him to cope with these difficulties. (Not just dyspraxia, but the poor relationships with fellow-students and with tutors.)

Would time out help? Would a different course be better or would the same problems recur?

Not RTWT but I am a tutor on a numerate university degree.
Every year we get students coming to us who have scraped a B in GCSE Maths (while we um and ah about making our acceptance level an A).
Some of them then complain that there is a numerate component to the degree - "but I have dyscalculia". Well, maybe you do, but if you had a clinical inability to learn languages you wouldn't be doing a language degree, same for difficulty with maths and a numerate degree. And it's not just a case of passing in Y1 and then ignoring it after that. It permeates every component of the degree.

But those students have got on to our course.

Some of them fail their numeracy component, fail it again, and leave the course.
Some work very hard or get a tutor and pass first time or second time.

I wouldn't tell them "you'll never make it in our discipline" but I give them short shrift if they think they can ask to go forward having failed the component. They NEED those skills.
And I'm also a bit irritated if they say "can't we do the subject without the numeracy?". No you bloody can't. You can't read any of the papers without numeracy, for a start.

It's very rare not to offer a resit for a first year assessment especially if it's a genuine fail (not cheating - obviously this is not but I've had some fails that were not honestly obtained either). The Uni regulations should say this.
Going forward, he probably does need a tutor. Some of my weaker students just aren't facing their difficulties and a tutor makes them do this.
But ultimately a few students who get onto degrees, find one component makes the whole thing impossible. Sad but true.

So this is more than about him being gangly. He has -

1. Questioned aspects of the movement class.
2. Probably not been enthusiastic about doing the movement classes.
3. Some students have not wanted to work with him. That may be because of his lack of enthusiasm.
4. He has missed some classes.
5. It sounds as if he has complained to the tutors that they did not check why he had missed some classes and they told him it is not their job. They are right.

I think he has to wait first and see if he can do resits. If he can't, then the decision is made for him. But at university he will be treated as an adult and needs to act as one. Just as you don't just turn up to work because you are having a panic attack and expect that to be okay, you don't just not turn up at a university class. If you can't go, you contact the tutors to tell them what is happening.

Sounding more and more like he knew/was told there was a problem early on but instead of dealing with it stuck his head in the sand.

That's always the temptation but doesn't help anything.

At this point he does need to ask the uni what he needs to do to stay on the course if he gets the chance and if he wants to.

And OP, please do not focus on the issue being that he is tall and gangly. It is clear there is much more to it than that. And he needs to face that.

This sounds really tough, OP.

But crunchymint does have a point: university with compulsory-attendance modules is like a job: if you don't ring in sick and don't provide a doctor's note, you will lose the job.

The behaviour of his fellow students does sound bullying. Tbh I would have thought it fair if they had complained to the tutor if they felt he was not working hard enough at the movement or seemed disdainful about doing something he was bad at, but there is no excuse for turning your back on someone.

About the questionnaire, did he know that he was supposed to be getting one? Did he ask for one? Any chance that the teacher simply forgot?

I don't for a moment doubt that this university may have sub-standard pastoral provision. I know it happens. But it is not clear how much effort he has made to access whatever provision there may have been.

And it does sound a bit as if he has a tendency to write things off if he finds them difficult or does not immediately see the point in them. It is difficult when you lack a particular talent which is a major part of the training you want to do. But not impossible.

Somebody mentioned Daniel Radcliffe as an example of an actor with no grace or talent for movement. Would that be the Daniel Radcliffe who took ballet lessons after Harry Potter and ended up winning the Astaire award for Best Male Dancer on Stage for his part in How to Succeed in Business? Looking at the young Daniel Radcliffe, that can't have come without a good deal of pain and embarrassment. But he did it.

At our university, we do not object to contact from parents if a student is really struggling or very distressed about something. Another poster is right about confidentiality but it certainly can't hurt to let the tutor know your son is "distraught."
Original message says he won't even speak to his mum. There have been some awful stories recently about kids not coping at university and any sensible tutor will listen to a parent who has concerns.

Regarding the bitchiness I think I might hazard a guess why it happened.

You mentioned that this is a PA course. Singing dancing and acting and movement and that there was only 30 places to 700 applicants.

At 18 most people on these performing arts type courses know each other or know someone who is a friend of someone on the course.

Was there someone who could sing dance act and move who was friends with someone or a group who didn't get in and they are looking at your ds and thinking how did he get in given he can't dance or move when friend didn't.

When you are trying to forge your way professionally it often helps to distinguish between what might be true and what is profitable. It may well be that Oliversmumsarmy's guess is correct. But focusing on it is hardly going to help him move on from where he is now.

He needs to be able to say to himself "yes, the way they behaved was wrong" and then park that. Because the only way forward, assuming that is where he wants to go, is to think "how can I improve my work?" Think about Daniel Radcliffe again; he was much younger than your ds when the whole of the internet was plastered with unkind comments about how he looked and moved and how wooden he was. Can't have been easy to read and must have been incredibly tempting to write it all off as jealousy. But ballet lessons were a far more useful thing.