Men wanting to be Women

[bert3400]

To think transgender women really have no idea what being a women is ? . Maybe it's time we had a 3rd Gender . Be interested in hearing what real women & transwomen feel ?

transwomen are men.........there is no male/female brain am pretty sure they would have identified it in babies already if there was. Males and females brains might act differently but this will be due to socialisation (brain plasticity) and behavioural traits are the effects of hormones on individual temperament.

It may not just be down to socialisation. I remember many years ago reading about man who was brought up as a girl after botched surgery as a baby in the 70s. That person always felt that they were the "wrong" gender and suffered mental health problems as a result. Eventually, they found out what had happened and switched to being a man.

So we are! well that’s excellent and I stand corrected. AIBU it is!

Probably a few more women who don’t noramlly hang out in feminism started reading and went through the ‘well of course... that’s stupid.... what? ... god I had no idea.... bloody hell thats awful!’ Process. Fab.

Here’s a summary of the facts around self ID for anyone who has stumbled across the thread and would like some more information on what it’s all about.

sages.org.uk/publications/sages-factsheet.html

Most people have not a scooby that this is happening.

They do. There is plenty about it on the television and in newspapers. They just don't have the same views as you do on the subject.

No-one is arguing what "woman" means when you're talking just about biology. But when it comes to the social context - and there is a social meaning to the word - what it is to be that thing, "a woman", is a perfectly reasonable question

Thats my point - come up with a new word then that is not linked to biology. But all that's being proposed is to continue to conflate gender norms and societal expectations (so so SO many of which are unhelpful to women) with biology.

I am a woman because of my biology. I am expected to behave in particular ways and socially conditioned because of my biology.

I would like to decouple those things please because they're really fucking annoying in lots of ways. Keeping them bound together is VERY unhelpful for my life and happiness.

It may not just be down to socialisation. I remember many years ago reading about man who was brought up as a girl after botched surgery as a baby in the 70s. That person always felt that they were the "wrong" gender and suffered mental health problems as a result. Eventually, they found out what had happened and switched to being a man.

And then he killed himself, because both he and his twin brother had been horrifically sexually abused in pursuit of this gender treatment. So did his brother. That possibly had some bearing on it.

Actually, Mumsnet is the only place I have seen any information or informed debate on this subject.

The fact that women talking and expressing an opinion peacefully is seen as literal violence shows you how skewed reality is for TRAs. They think a woman saying no to them is an act of aggression.

This ^^

Biologically, an adult is a human or other organism that has reached sexual maturity. In human context, the term adult additionally has meanings associated with social and legal concepts.

I'm just going to repeat this quote again in it's whole, and let's see if we can't see that this is exactly how a lot of people see the definition of "woman".

All the other shit is gender

Ah, gender. The externally observed set of stereotypes that represent one sex or the other.

Why do you think people exhibit gender, usually in alignment with their sex? My understanding is that people are drawn to "signal" their allegiance to particular groups by exhibiting the stereotypes associated with that group.

Useful for reproduction and social function.

Also there are benefits to rejecting the stereotypes associated, not least these days the desire to be "cool" or subversive, or simply to reject them when associating with that group serves no particular function for an individual.

Seems there might be something inside some (each?) of us that draws us to interact with (either through acceptance of or rejecting of) the stereotypes associated with our sex. Some people call this their "gender identity".

Gender identity, then, would seem to have quite a fair bit to do with who gets to be "socially" a woman, don't you think?

They do. There is plenty about it on the television and in newspapers.

There’s chuff all that’s impartial or giving any serious analysis of the implications of self ID on women’s safety or child safeguarding.

The guardian and the baby blogosphere is all ‘look at this poor teen YOURE ALL NASTY BIGOTS! DO WHAT WE WANT OR SUICIDE!’

The tabloid press treat transgender people as some kind of freak show.

Neither, and no other outlet I’ve seen has had any serious work on what the societal, medical or legal implications of introducing self ID actually are.

I don’t want to read freak show articles about transpeople - it’s distatsteful and disrespectful. I dont want to be told I’m a bigot for saying that transwomen are men. I want to read some real analysis. I’ve seen maybe two or three pieces in total (James kirkup for example I think in the spectator) which do this.

It really isn’t being covered in the press.

And then he killed himself, because both he and his twin brother had been horrifically sexually abused in pursuit of this gender treatment. So did his brother. That possibly had some bearing on it.

I don't know if you are talking about the same case. The person I read about was alive. Why did the brother receive gender treatment? Regardless, the case suggests that there is an innate sense of being a certain gender and it is not just down to socialisation.

Thats my point - come up with a new word then that is not linked to biology.

It works just fine to have more than one meaning to the word "adult", when that too is linked to biology.

If you want a way to describe the purely biological aspects of womanhood you can say "adult human female". Easy. "Woman" has always had a duality of meaning, including the social function of a woman.

RatRolyPoly

So what are the characteristics of the gender identity of a woman then?

Definitely worth saying that transgenderism is wholly incoherent.

There is plenty about it on the television and in newspapers. They just don't have the same views as you do on the subject.

That's simply not true.

There has been very little in the press discussing the issues surrounding Self ID.

When women meet to discuss it we are met by transactivists in face masks trying to intimidate us into silence FFS!

If you went and polled parens of school age kids, if they knew what their school's policy on trans is, most wouldn't know.

Most parents have no idea that male bodied DC will be able to share rooms with their DDs on journeys away, without being informed by the guides / school / youth org. Many parents would be up in arms if they knew their DDs were being put at risk of teen pregnancy like this!

Most people think transgender means dysphoria, they think that transwomen are old-school transexuals who want to chop their penis off. They don't realise that transwomen are mostly male bodied people who have no intention of losing their penises.

Most people do not think lesbians can have penises and would be horrified to hear about the pressure lesbians are coming under to accept dicks or to transition to transmen.

Most women do not want men in our female spaces, expect to get a biological woman for our smear test / doctor / rape counsellor etc if we ask for one.

And many people don't realise that transwomen are taking over women's sports.

Maybe in your bubble, people know about this. But in the real world - most people have no idea what the issues are.

Seems there might be something inside some (each?) of us that draws us to interact with (either through acceptance of or rejecting of) the stereotypes associated with our sex. Some people call this their "gender identity

What you’re describing is the classical definition of a soul. Cartesian dualism. It’s a faith based position. If you want to have a faith based position then that’s your right, but don’t expect people with a non faith based position to agree with it, and certainly don’t impose it on others.

We are socialised from birth into gender roles. Even tiny babies get it. I’ve lived in countries that aren’t as hung up on gender (Scandinavian ones) and you see far, far less aggressive stereotyping of men and women, and society is better for it.

I do not believe there is some kind of gendered soul or essence in each of us. We have sex based differences. How those manifest is a mixture of biology and how our specific society conditions us.

And that’s what comes out as gender. Sex remains binary. And immutable.

Woman" has always had a duality of meaning, including the social function of a woman.

Well "the social function of a woman" is what I would quite like to see challenged rather than reinforced by males identifying into it.

If I identify out of these social functions I am then identifying out of being a woman then?

There’s chuff all that’s impartial or giving any serious analysis of the implications of self ID on women’s safety or child safeguarding.

I think the reporting on self ID is generally a lot more impartial on TV/newspapers than threads like this. If you want to convince people of the dangers of self-ID perhaps just stick to that issue. Once you make it clear that you are antitransgender full stop and there is no way you will ever accept any transgender person, then people stop listening to you or engaging in debate i.e. it is counterproductive..

I don't know if you are talking about the same case. The person I read about was alive. Why did the brother receive gender treatment? Regardless, the case suggests that there is an innate sense of being a certain gender and it is not just down to socialisation.

You said it was many years ago. He killed himself in 2004. The vast majority of trans identified males are completely typical male bodied individuals. He was not a trans identified male.

I think the reporting on self ID is generally a lot more impartial on TV/newspapers than threads like this.

It's not "impartial" in the slightest. Ever heard of Trans Media Watch?

So what are the characteristics of the gender identity of a woman then?

What do you mean, the characteristics? The stereotypes associated with womanhood change through time and with location; that's observable. That thing inside a person that let's them know which set of stereotypes relate to them - for them to either accept or reject - well that's their gender identity.

I can't say I know too much about how that feels actually, except that I know I'm a woman. I imagine you do too. That self-identification, that's about the only measurable thing I can see for gender identity actually.

Although we can observe that there is something in us that urges us to interact with the stereotypes aimed at our sex (or of the other sex, if you're transexual). And it isn't "personality", because why then would so many females throughout time have had a "female" personality? Surely they'd be just as likely to have a male one and gender stereotypes would never have gotten off the ground in the first place!

Once you make it clear that you are antitransgender full stop and there is no way you will ever accept any transgender person, then people stop listening to you or engaging in debate i.e. it is counterproductive..

No one is though.

Ratrolypoly

So you agree someone who identifies as a woman is not biologically female?

Because from what I've seen in the trans movement many of them are saying they are biologically female because they identify as 'women'. This is the issue.

Do you think biological females need segregation from biological males in certain areas where biology matters like sport?

You said it was many years ago. He killed himself in 2004

I said I don't know if you are talking about the same case. What was his name?

The vast majority of trans identified males are completely typical male bodied individuals. He was not a trans identified male.

So what? The point is that case suggests there could be something biological that "tells" people what gender they should be and it is not just down to socialisation or what their outer body looks like.

But I reject many MANY of the stereotypes for women. Oh so many. But your argument seems to be the fact that I know to respond to a stereotype applying to me as a woman is evidence that I have the gender identity of a woman?

Your logic doesn't work.

Applying your logic the fact that I recognise that the stereotype that women can't bbq applies to me because I am a woman means that I have a gender identity of a woman, regardless of whether or not I agree with the stereotype.

The logic is very jumbled.

No one is though.

No one is what?