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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Men wanting to be Women

823 replies

bert3400 · 16/05/2018 22:26

To think transgender women really have no idea what being a women is ? . Maybe it's time we had a 3rd Gender . Be interested in hearing what real women & transwomen feel ?

OP posts:
Bowlofbabelfish · 21/05/2018 12:50

to be so adamant that trans people ... have some predatory agenda is just so offensive

No. Nobody on here is saying ‘all transpeople are ....’

What they’re saying is that trans women are men
That transwomen retain the patterns of offending of their sex.
And thus that a trans woman is as much or little risk in a female space as any other man.

My dh is a lovely chap and absolutely zero risk to anyone. He’d never dream of using the women’s changing rooms because he understands that men as a class are a danger to women and that’s why we have women’s spaces.

If you want transwomen to be in women’s spaces you may as well get rid of women’s spaces altogether. And that is what the TRA movement seem to want. Which contradicts their own reasons for wanting to access women’s spaces

MiggeldyHiggins · 21/05/2018 12:51

You might want to have a think about it; your definition of a woman depends on it

No, mine depends on reality. Try some.

Bowlofbabelfish · 21/05/2018 12:52

your definition of a woman depends on it

Define woman then.

Ereshkigal · 21/05/2018 12:52

Most people, particularly younger people, are just happy to not say anything and live and let live.

Lovely. Not everyone agrees with this approach.

aaarrrggghhhh · 21/05/2018 12:53

But Ratpoly.

These aren't really good analogies because they aren't related to wanting to change or in some relate to/be defined according to a particular physical form.

Of course the umbrella of transgender has now become so broad, but to me it seems it can be characterised in two ways:

i) people who want to have the actual physical characteristics of the other sex and are dysphoric with their own bodies. I struggle to see how this cannot be a mental illness.

ii) people who want to behave in various ways that have traditionally been associated with particular physical forms. The thing with this category is that rather than decoupling this from physical form the "trans movement" wants the language/law/social norms around it to remain linked to the physical form - i.e. the underlying belief is still based on people wanting to have a different physical form than they do in reality.

I am delighted for people of different sexes to bust gender myths left right and centre. But then come up with a new word for it. There remains a need for language, laws and social norms that are linked to physical reality.

Ereshkigal · 21/05/2018 12:55

Have people lost all ability to think?

It would seem so. But we're just boring old cis binary fetishists, what would we know?

Ereshkigal · 21/05/2018 12:55

I am delighted for people of different sexes to bust gender myths left right and centre. But then come up with a new word for it. There remains a need for language, laws and social norms that are linked to physical reality.

This x 100.

RatRolyPoly · 21/05/2018 12:58

No, mine depends on reality. Try some.

Good luck defining "woman" without adult.

Good luck defining "adult".

Dungeondragon15 · 21/05/2018 13:01

Lovely. Not everyone agrees with this approach.

Obviously but you are a minority and the constant aggressive antitransgender threads on mumsnet are counterproductive to your cause.

Ireneony · 21/05/2018 13:01

Genuine question - if transwomen are women and always have been then what are they 'transitioning' from and to?
If being a woman is not about chromosomes, reproductive systems, dresses/heels/makeup or hobbies/interests/job roles then a) what is a woman? And b) why do transwomen need to 'present' as 'women' at all seeing as all those things are just stereotypes and women can 'present' however they like and still be women?

Personally I would like to see a world where people are just people, can express themselves however they like without having to 'label' it and your personality has no bearing whatsoever on your biological sex (or race or sexuality for that matter). I feel that the trans movement is actually taking us backwards by affirming that there is a specific 'way' to be a man or woman which is incredibly sexist and putting people back in boxes.

Why can't a man wear dresses and makeup, have predominantly female friends, take part in 'female' activities? Why does that make him not a man? Oh yes, because he'll be bullied and possibly attacked by other males. Well shouldn't we be challenging those attitudes? We should be breaking down these boxes not reinforcing them.

Bowlofbabelfish · 21/05/2018 13:02

What’s the problem with using adult?

A woman is an adult human female where female denotes of the sex able to produce ova. A girl is the immature form of woman.

There is no definition of woman that includes or can include transwomen.

It really shouldn’t be radical to say this. Men cannot become women. Women cannot become men. Transpeople exist and deserve protection, at the same same they remain the sex they were born.

Strongmummy · 21/05/2018 13:04

In your day to day life , what have you experienced personally? Personally

MiggeldyHiggins · 21/05/2018 13:05

Good luck defining "woman" without adult. Good luck defining "adult"

Now I'm wondering if you're drunk.

Defining woman and adult are both really really easy.

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Biologically, an adult is a human or other organism that has reached sexual maturity. In human context, the term adult additionally has meanings associated with social and legal concepts. In contrast to a "minor", a legal adult is a person who has attained the age of majority and is therefore regarded as independent, self-sufficient, and responsible. The typical age of attaining adulthood is 18, although definition may vary by legal rights and country.

Is that too difficult for you?

grandplans · 21/05/2018 13:05

I'm sure they'd be making just as much money if they were "curing" the desire to transition as they are facilitating it, don't you?

No, not really.

If you have a profit-driven medial industry, then the best way for them to make money isn't actually to cure people, but to sell products and manage life long conditions.

So with transition you are opening up all sorts of lucrative beauty / cosmetic surgery opportunities for the plastic surgery industry - procedures that were previously considered just for vanity when done to a woman, but if done to a man because he has dysphoria, now given a level of respectability - they're to help him transition, to manage his dysphoria, not just for vanity.

And it's not just about sex change surgery - indeed most transwomen opt not to chop their dicks off. It's about stuff like boob jobs, facial feminisation surgery, and surgery, potentially, on any part of the human body that implies sexual characteristics, potentially.

This is a large and lucrative market, potentially. Just like any plastic surgery for looks - when are they finished? Well, never! For those with the money, a life time of surgical procedures awaits. Then there's also the maintenance of existing surgeries - a lot can go wrong with a neo-vagina for example, as it's essentially a wound you need to keep open.

Then, there are the careers that will be founded on this. There's no glory in using counselling to help people manage a difficult time in their life - that's what counselling is for already.

But surgeons developing new techniques and any number of types of academics writing papers, could significantly boost their careers by being at the forefront of this new field.

It's a gift to plastic surgeons - loads of people offering up their bodies to be experimented on.

Then there's all the pills they can sell - hormones, puberty blockers etc etc. And people are so keen to take this stuff, they're not even demanding clinical trials! Puberty blockers were never designed to be given to trans kids, and there have been no large trials on them. They're being used off label.

However - anyone who's spent some time looking at this can see the law suits are on the horizon. The voices of detransistors are being suppressed at the moment, but they will get too numerous to ignore. Once they start organising, many of the people making money and kudos from it now may come to regret their involvement.

I can't believe the trans community aren't more worried about this. What happened to healthy cynicism about profit-driven healthcare?

The level of wilful naivety is depressing, and what makes it even more concerning is that it's vulnerable people who are getting caught up in this and will have to live with the life changing consequences of transition.

Kids with depression, anorexia and autism are much more likely to be trans. Kids who are gay and/or generally gender-non-conforming in a straight world are being encouraged to transition rather than to navigate puberty and to be comfortable with themselves.

That an ideology that encourages healthy teenagers to chop off bits of their bodies and take very strong unlicensed drugs is being promoted in schools and in the media is absolutely a scandal in the making.

We will look back at this as a terrible mistake.

MiggeldyHiggins · 21/05/2018 13:05

Oops. some extraneous crap there for some reason. you can tell which bit is relevant I'm sure

grandplans · 21/05/2018 13:06

*medical industry not medial industry!

Ereshkigal · 21/05/2018 13:11

Obviously but you are a minority and the constant aggressive antitransgender threads on mumsnet are counterproductive to your cause.

lol, people who believe biological sex is a meaningful category and gender identity is purely a psychological issue are by no means a minority. You tell yourself that.

iamawoman · 21/05/2018 13:17

transwomen are men.........there is no male/female brain am pretty sure they would have identified it in babies already if there was. Males and females brains might act differently but this will be due to socialisation (brain plasticity) and behavioural traits are the effects of hormones on individual temperament. No one has an innate sense of gender identity or any identity for that matter, we are what we due to the place, time, sex we are born into. To feel you have been born in the wrong body is a terrible thing but no one is benefitted in my view by pretending that males can become females and vice versa. If a male does not feel his sense of self fits with the model of masculinity, and does not have gender dysphoria, then it would be better to challenge the gender norms by being a male that performs femininity

Dungeondragon15 · 21/05/2018 13:18

lol, people who believe biological sex is a meaningful category and gender identity is purely a psychological issue are by no means a minority. You tell yourself that.

I meant that you are in that you are unable to live and let live. Most people do not feel the need to constantly harp on about men not being able to turn into women etc etc.

Bowlofbabelfish · 21/05/2018 13:19

the constant aggressive antitransgender threads on mumsnet

Let’s tally the score:

In the blue corner, mumsnet. Women, talking, about potential threats to safety and safeguarding.
Violence incited: nil
Threats issued: also nil

In the red corner (maybe it should be pink?) the TRA movement:
Threats of violence: many and Divers. Die terf scum, enjoy your erasure etc etc.
Songs inciting violence against non compliant women on Youtube: some
Actual physical assaults on women in real life: Maria M being assaulted at speakers corner.
Physically threatening behaviour towards women; yup - feminists blocked from entering a peaceful meeting by masked TRAs.
Women arrested under caution (and later released without charge) yup

From where I’m sitting, the violence, threats of violence, threats to women’s careers, and sheer volume of bile and invective is coming from the TRA side. What I see on MN is debate - zero incitement to hatred. Zero threats. It’s women talking about an issue.

The fact that women talking and expressing an opinion peacefully is seen as literal violence shows you how skewed reality is for TRAs. They think a woman saying no to them is an act of aggression.

Do feel free to name a single act of real world aggression, or a real act of incitement to violence that’s come from MN. If you can find one. But I bet you can’t.

RatRolyPoly · 21/05/2018 13:20

Biologically, an adult is a human or other organism that has reached sexual maturity.

Ha, yes indeed, I think we're getting somewhere. Biologically it's to do with sexual maturity.

Biologically, "woman" refers to the female sex class that produce ova.

In human context, the term adult additionally has meanings associated with social and legal concepts.

In human context, the term "woman" additionally has meanings associated with the social and legal concepts.

Oh my god, the world is going to fall down on our heads because "woman" can mean more than one thing. Women will be erased, the term will become meaningless!!

"Woman" means something in law; you can be a woman in the eyes of the law and that doesn't mess with biology, it's all just fine.

"Woman" means something in a social context. Like, not the same as the biological meaning; to be a woman in society has meaning, just like "adult" can be used to refer to someone's functioning within society.

No-one is arguing what "woman" means when you're talking just about biology. But when it comes to the social context - and there is a social meaning to the word - what it is to be that thing, "a woman", is a perfectly reasonable question.

Bowlofbabelfish · 21/05/2018 13:21

Most people do not feel the need to constantly harp on about men not being able to turn into women etc etc.

You’re on a feminist board on a thread where people are discussing the issue. People will be mentioning it yes.

Would you prefer we just rolled over and gave up all our spaces like good little submissive women?

RatRolyPoly · 21/05/2018 13:22

You’re on a feminist board on a thread where people are discussing the issue.

Nope, we're on AIBU.

Bowlofbabelfish · 21/05/2018 13:22

But when it comes to the social context - and there is a social meaning to the word - what it is to be that thing, "a woman", is a perfectly reasonable question.

The answer is ‘exactly the same definition as the biological one.’

All the other shit is gender

grandplans · 21/05/2018 13:24

Most people do not feel the need to constantly harp on about men not being able to turn into women etc etc.

Most people have not a scooby that this is happening.

We are going on about it as we can see a human disaster unfolding, with ill-informed people rushing to make laws on subjects they've not really understood and which will negatively affect women and children in myriad ways.

Damn right we're shouting about it.

If you saw a bunch of people, including children, unwittingly about to jump off a cliff, wouldn't you be shouting about it?! And if there were a bunch of other people standing at the bottom of a cliff shouting "don't listen to them it's not a cliff, it's fine, they're just mad people who hate us"

Would that make you say "oh, OK, we'll let them jump" or would it make you shout louder so people could actually hear what you were saying?