Men wanting to be Women

[bert3400]

To think transgender women really have no idea what being a women is ? . Maybe it's time we had a 3rd Gender . Be interested in hearing what real women & transwomen feel ?

I agree and I think it must be very distressing for them. The constant harping on, particularly on MN that they will never be women isn't helpful.

Yes, reality can be tough for many people in many different. But the world is not going to lie about it to spare your feelings. That's something you need to come to terms with. It's an unreasonable expectation. Of course people need to talk about it as it's not all about what trans people think or want. It's not personal. But we need to deal with the reality of women as a class and men as a class. It's not helpful to pretend they don't exist, for anyone.

I have only seen the daily numerous threads stating that men can never be women.

I also think this is completely pointless. If there are practical issues, resolve the practical issues. But this just smacks of vindictiveness, and inciting a group to the mass ridiculing of transpeople.

I have only seen the daily numerous threads stating that men can never be women

then you haven't understood any of them. Try reading them, you might learn something.
They are in response to something, obviously. You're not curious to discover what?

Most right-thinking people don't call homosexuality a neurological disorder anymore, do they. If they did, would you say it was "just words"?

What shall we call schizophrenia, for instance? Shall we stop treating it as a mental disorder? Are people who hear voices telling them concerning things just expressing a "naturally occurring biological phenomenon"?

Yes, reality can be tough for many people in many different. But the world is not going to lie about it to spare your feelings. That's something you need to come to terms with.

You don't need to lie about it. You just don't need to say anything at all on the subject. There's certainly no need to constantly harp on about it. Most people are happy to live and let live nowadays, particularly younger people and the non-stop antitransgender threads on mumsnet are going to stop it.

You just don't need to say anything at all on the subject.

Yes I do thanks. Sorry, that's not going to work for me and other women with concerns about this ideology.

Please try and learn how science works.

Well, my words are now immortalised on MN, as are yours, so anyone at all is quite welcome to decide which one of us knows "how science works".

In the meantime you'd better get on to all those biologists examining the sex related behaviours of various organisms; I'm not sure if you'll want to tell them they should leave it to the psychologists or that there's nothing left to discover. Oh well, I'm sure you'll work it out.

then you haven't understood any of them. Try reading them, you might learn something.

I have read plenty of them, thanks.

What shall we call schizophrenia, for instance? Shall we stop treating it as a mental disorder? Are people who hear voices telling them concerning things just expressing a "naturally occurring biological phenomenon"?

How about whilst we believe it to be a mental disorder we call it that. And then later if we change our mind we can have another look.

Well, my words are now immortalised on MN, as are yours, so anyone at all is quite welcome to decide which one of us knows "how science works"

Well one of us understands that humans are sex binary, and you don't. So yeah, everyone can see.

Sex behaviours is a different matter entirely, but you shouldn't run before you can work, so maybe go back and try a sex ed for primary age book?

*walk

How about whilst we believe it to be a mental disorder we call it that. And then later if we change our mind we can have another look.

Yes. Gender dysphoria is still a recognised psychological condition in the DSM5. As is transvestic fetishism, a recognised paraphilia. There is some evidence for a genetic basis for gender dysphoria itself, like there is for schizophrenia, but that is not the same as saying that the person has the brain of the opposite sex. At all.

Sex behaviours is a different matter entirely

Um, yeah, not when one is a biologist studying sex. Or genetics. Or evolution. Or, you know, biology?

What do you think people study all day in biology once they've got the hang of anatomy?? There wouldn't be an awful lot for them once they'd finished your primary school text book.

Nope Ereshkigal and I'm not saying that.

Currently it is what it is.

Scientists certainly are not at a consensus as to whether or not that's right.

I'm not presuming to know what might happen in the future.

It seems bizarre to me that anyone* might be so sure.

*Other than a scientist in the relevant field, of course, although as we know they're prone to disagree.

It is completely astonishing that people are trying to argue that sex is not binary.

Yes I do thanks. Sorry, that's not going to work for me and other women with concerns about this ideology.

I meant that the "world" doesn't need to lie about it. Most people, particularly younger people, are just happy to not say anything and live and let live.

It's beyond all rationality. Sex is defined by reproductive role, otherwise what is it? If you have a feeling in your head that is female, then female is not based on reproductive sex, so what is it based on? Reproductive sex is the reason the categories male and female exist in the first place. Take it away and you have no reason for the categories at all.

*What do you think people study all day in biology once they've got the hang of anatomy?? There wouldn't be an awful lot for them once they'd finished your primary school text book

Well you clearly still haven;t got the hang of anatomy, so why don;t you tell us?

You are delusional. You don't understand Step ONE of human biology, so stop embarrassing yourself talking about the complicated stuff, k?

I know what I meant to say. The arrogance of some people on here is astounding. We don’t know why trans people are the way they are. Therefore to tell me I meant to say they “feel” rather than “are” is ludicrous.

Rat is also absolutely correct about the way homosexuality used to be viewed. We are learning more and more about the complexity of biology, neurology , what is is to be human and so to be so adamant that trans people are delusional or a social construct or have some predatory agenda is just so offensive

Have people lost all ability to think?

We don’t know why trans people are the way they are. Therefore to tell me I meant to say they “feel” rather than “are” is ludicrous

It's not ludicrous at all. Please try to understand: a man who says he feels like he should be a woman is still a man. This is an objective, observable, scientific fact.
Do you understand that?

It is completely astonishing that people are trying to argue that sex is not binary.*

This is not my area Pratchet, but it seems quite clear to me that for the purposes of reproduction a binary is required - and exists.

But sex in the context of biology is more than just the means, behaviours and equipment required for reproduction.

So I think what's being studied is that the characteristics or sex - physical, behavioural or whatever - may present on a spectrum, the broad two halves of which represent the biologically dimorphic nature of our species (as required for reproduction) with a bit of a hazy grey area in the middle.

Like I say, not my area, just what I understand about the question being raised.

Everyone knows that for the purpose of reproduction there are two required body types - fully functioning - one act to be committed, and a selection of behaviours to be exhibited by each party to get them to commit the act in the first place. I don't think a living soul disputes that.

i not a woman because of my sex organs. If so, I’m a complete failure as I can’t have sex. Something far more fundamental makes me a woman. No idea what it is. Hopefully science will one day explain

*cant have kids, not can’t have sex. I can still do that

Rat: if sex is a binary and immutable, anything else is feelings, personality, possibly hormonal imbalances. It's not sex.